[pvaldes]

> To me, a government that feels a need to deploy police to stop a region from demanding independence is inherently illegitimate.

And to the rest of the planet is totally legit

Deploying police when there are serious disturbs by groups of organised people that are purposely preventing people from leading a normal life, ravaging and creating really dangerous situations for everybody is: NORMAL.

Name a country in the planet. Whichever country. This is exactly what the government of that country will do in the same situation.

Maybe for a few people is a videogame and lots of fun, but for the rest of us is a rock put in the path of the train when we or our loved ones are travelling. You will eat this rock if I would see you doing that.

For the rest is their small shop set in flames or ravaged. Is huge bills in damages and healthcare that they will have to pay. Is, undoubtely and crystal clear, Terrorism.

And deliberately sending your minions to disturb the peace and convivence of the society, unless you agree to "talk with me" accept my new twisted concept of "democracy" and gave me something for telling my people to stop and go home. Well, this has a name also in any part of this planet and the name is blackmail.

[vidarh]

You are arguing a strawman. I never suggested the behaviour you are describing is legitimate either.

[pvaldes]

So we both agree that could be some legitimate reasons to send police to stop a region for demanding independence. It depends on how is demanded.

And if you are trying to suggest that the police is sent to stop the region each time the people demands peacefully independence because, duh, "Spain, evil people", let me inform you that this only happens in your imagination.

The main festivity in the region has been replaced by groups of people showing flags and asking for indepencence, year after year, after year. Everybody can find decens of videos on internet. Do you know what? As everybody can confirm easily, the number of people detained for asking independence peacefully in this kind of events is: zero.

Every independentist is crying slogans, singing and walking with banners and flags. No police is sent to stop any of their performances or demand silence, we are a society proud of granting an extensive freedom of speach

...with some limits of course. Like in many democracies, there are laws pursuing libel and protecting right to honour. You can't claim anything you want from other people without showing proofs, and this is not a bad thing

[vidarh]

> So we both agree that could be some legitimate reasons to send police to stop a region for demanding independence. It depends on how is demanded.

No. I agree that there are actions that are legitimate to stop by force. Demanding independence is not one of them. Using violence while demanding independence if you have other means of obtaining independence would be; using violence against people who are not representing the government denying your claim, would be.

Notably Spanish police were deployed to stop the independence vote itself. To me that means the Spanish government inherently lost legitimacy. They are oppressors, and by extension Spain is denying democracy to a substantial portion of its population. I'd hesitate to call Spain democratic at all as a result.

The supporters of independence are dealing with an oppressive government that are denying them rule by consent, and which by extension they have every reason to see as illegitimate, and they have no reason to respect that governments right to a monopoly on the use of force.

Subsequent actions are largely secondary effects; you can not expect people to remain peaceful in the face of an oppressor.

But that does not mean that violence or destructive actions targeting people who have nothing to do with the oppression they face is acceptable.

> And if you are trying to suggest that the police is sent to stop the region each time the people demands peacefully independence because, duh, "Spain, evil people", let me inform you that this only happens in your imagination.

Again, I've never suggested this. You seem incredibly intent in reading things into what I wrote that is simply not there.

[pvaldes]

You can twist the words anything you want and repeat oppresion ten times in a row. But this house of cards simply do not resist the tiniest breeze of logical reasoning.

You know that both the first and the second referendum were just clownery and embezzlement. Everybody knows it yet.

We know now that of the around 300 detained for violent disturbs, 32 were directly incarcered for their participation in the most severe disturbs. Of this 32 people 27 where Catalonian independentists. Not evil spaniards "infiltrats" as they claimed. The rest were well known foreigners "professionals of violence" (from Italy and France for example).

We know that the anticapitalists can't build a Tsunami democratic app. For common people is just technically too expensive to hire programmers for that and maintain the system running. Only relatively rich people with lots of money to burn could be at the other extreme of the app.

Enough is enough. All the lies were exposed again and again by proven facts. Nothing that came from separatism mouths is trustable anymore.

[pvaldes]

(another day, another typo)

An extensive freedom of -> speech