[skokage]

>Breja alleges that on March 12, 2019, in an executive team meeting, he learned that some batches of mint e-liquid had been found to be contaminated. Approximately 250,000 mint refill kits, the equivalent of one million pods, were manufactured with the contaminated e-liquid, shipped to retailers, and sold to customers.

I really wish the article detailed what exactly the contaminant is, especially considering the current hysteria over vaping.

>That same day, Breja “protested Juul’s refusal to issue a product recall for the contaminated pods, or at a minimum issue a public health and safety notice to consumers.” Then-chief finance officer Tim Danaher reportedly “questioned his financial acumen,” since these suggestions would lead to billions of dollars in lost sales and hurt Juul’s then-$38 billion valuation, according to the lawsuit. Danaher, whose departure was announced by the company on Tuesday, allegedly told Breja that he should remember his loyalty to Juul.

It's sad that there are so many people who would knowingly cause harm to others, just all for the opportunity to make just a little bit more money. They were already making money, and I'm pretty sure this debacle will cost them far more money in the long run than just doing a voluntary recall and coming clean. No better than the tobacco companies that came decades before.

[gatherhunterer]

> No better than the tobacco companies that came decades before.

I can’t believe people are this gullible. They are the tobacco companies. Juul is owned by Phillip Morris and all of that nicotine liquid comes from the same tobacco.

[function_seven]

Altria bought their minority stake after Juul had already become the clear leader.

A lot of vapers were upset about this, but I hoped it would allow Juul to get some of that sweet regulatory capture. It’s a fantastic device for smokers who were disappointed by the vape pens that preceded it. (i.e. Me)

You should also compare the advertising Juul did before and after the Altria deal. Before they suspended all ads, it was nothing but 40- and 50-somethings talking about the switch use-case. Before, the ads were hip and trying to appeal to the younger crowd.

[crashbunny]

Juul might be big tobacco, but Juul or any tobacco company didn't invent vaping or make it popular. Juul jumped on after it was already popular and allegedly marketed it to kids.

For a long-time big tobacco saw vaping as a threat to their business, they worked and probably still work to have it banned.

[gatherhunterer]

> For a long-time big tobacco saw vaping as a threat to their business, they worked and probably still work to have it banned.

When you vape you are using tobacco. Selling vape liquid is selling tobacco. It’s not competitive in any sense, it is a new brand for the same product. Why are the addicts so unwilling to recognize that?

[soylentcola]

The "addicts" (as you call them) wanted a safer way to ingest the active ingredient in tobacco. Nicotine on its own isn't much worse for your health than caffeine, but having to inhale burning tobacco leaves to ingest it leads to all sorts of health problems.

People figured out that you could heat up a solution of pure nicotine and glycerins to create a mist that is easily absorbed when inhaled (but didn't include the tars, carbon monoxide, or the host of other byproducts of combustion that lead to respiratory and cardiovascular diseases).

Obviously it's not as ideal as breathing nothing but pure, Spaceballs-style "Perri-air" but it's like telling someone not to bother with a massive harm reduction because it doesn't eliminate 100% of potential health risks.

So while the nicotine is likely derived from tobacco (just because it's the easiest source), using a nicotine mist inhaler is hardly the same as inhaling the smoke of burning tobacco.

What started out mainly in the realm of tinkerers and curious people looking for a better way to wean off nicotine or minimize the health risks of smoking has been co-opted (at least as far as the mainstream discussion goes) by cig companies and those who would seek to become their successors.

[gatherhunterer]

> "addicts" (as you call them)

That’s what they are. I smoked from age 18 to 27 and I was fully aware that my physical and psychological reaction to withdrawal made me an addict.

The concept that vaping is safer is an assumption. Everyone assumed that smoking had no health risks until people started to study the effects of decades of use. The first vaporizers for nicotine arrived in 2006 so there is no possible way to know the full long-term effects of vaping. Assuming that it is safer is just as reasonable as assuming that it is less so.

> the nicotine is likely derived from tobacco

It absolutely is in 100% of vape liquids.

The delusion is palpable and the mental gymnastics that serve only the addiction are disturbing. As Dostoevsky said, ”The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to such a pass that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him...”

[crashbunny]

TD;DR vaping as a quit method shouldn't be banned. Non-smokers should be discouraged from taking up both vaping and smoking.

It began as a safer alternative to smoking, which was an assumption. The science isn't concrete but there is some evidence vaping is safer than smoking. Note safer and not safe.

It's also easier to quit cigarettes by switching to vaping and then gradually lowing the nicotine until you're vaping liquids with no nicotine. Then it's just the habit you have to beat the addiction to and not the nicotine.

It is a little difficult to switch from smoking to vaping as cigarettes are engineered to be as addictive as possible. There are more addictive chemicals in cigarettes than just nicotine, and some added chemicals to make the nicotine in cigarettes more addictive than plain old nicotine. Cigarettes are engineered for an instant hit that fades quickly. The hit from vaping is slow and steady. It takes time to adjust to vaping and there are cravings until you do.

I think something has to be done about non-smokers taking up vaping without stopping smokers from switching to vaping, I don't know what. There's an argument the non-smokers who take up vaping would probably take up smoking if vaping didn't exist.

[cl0ne]

> It absolutely is in 100% of vape liquids.

There are vape liquids without nicotine.

[leetcrew]

> Juul jumped on after it was already popular and allegedly marketed it to kids.

this is sorta unfair, imo. their advertising practices may be sketchy but the product itself is quite innovative. even today, I don't know of any vape products on the market that give as good of a user experience in such a small form factor.

[mc32]

That’s why these things should be regulated by the FDA and manufactured with validated systems with obligation to report any variance, etc, as any OTC drug company would have to (as well as Rx, of course).

[Alex3917]

The FDA has regulated Juul since 2016.

[mc32]

The products they currently sell are not FDA approved. They have till May 2020 to comply.

I’m curious if their MFG line is cGMP compliant. It may be, but bad batches would say procedure Sops etc were either not in effect, not available or ignored.

[crb002]

Posting bond should be sufficient. The bond company would do all kinds of 3rd party testing to cover their investment, far more than any agency would.

[lubesGordi]

The company that sent out the bad batch of liquid is interesting. Alternative Ingredients, Inc., who's website is down at the moment, is also otherwise known as Mother Murphy's , who brands themselves as a food flavoring company. The president of the company is David Murphy who's linkedIn tells the whole story. Basically Mother Murphy's has been around for a while in the Winston/Salem area, doing flavoring for cigarette companies. I guess that shouldn't be surprising.

[hanniabu]

> It's sad that there are so many people who would knowingly cause harm to others, just all for the opportunity to make just a little bit more money.

This is why we are where we are with the state of Earth's health.

> Danaher....allegedly told Breja that he should remember his loyalty to Juul

What's with all this cult behavior? I'll never understand it. It reminds of frat culture.

[pstuart]

> What's with all this cult behavior? I'll never understand it. It reminds of frat culture.

We are in many ways still tribal primitives with advanced technology.

[Nasrudith]

Because it gives control - and the frat business link has been infamous since at least the 80s and had many ancestral organizations.