[lovich]

How is it cool when these scooter companies steal a public good in terms of space on sidewalks?

I don't recall my town voting on a bill allowing companies to park their fleet on public land free of charge.

If you are making a living by stealing(and yes I equate using public land without a license as the same thing as stealing), then it's pretty hypocritical to complain that others steal from you

[lmilcin]

We at least need to consider benefits and costs.

I don't personally use these things, but I can understand for some people that try to get by in the city it makes most efficient way to get from A to B. These things take space, but much less of it that cars would take and especially if you had to park the car somewhere. If taking a scooter is the fastest way to get from A to B you might be inclined to leave your car at home or outside city center and use public transport + scooters in the most congested parts of cities.

Now, I think it is beneficial for companies to be allowed to try different things and then regulate once we learn a little bit. Just straight banning companies from using sidewalks would result in us never knowing if this is or is not a viable idea.

Once we learn a little bit we can always regulate it. Companies might for example be forced to chip in to keep sidewalks in order or there could be regulation fining people for leaving stuff outside designated areas.

[Cthulhu_]

Draw a comparison: would it be OK to hack / steal cars because they take up space?

I mean sure, scooters being dropped left and right is a problem - something Bird and co need to address, e.g. by fining anyone not leaving their items in designated areas - but transportation needs somewhere to stand. Whether said transportation is owned by a company or an individual is a moot point.

[tyfon]

> Draw a comparison: would it be OK to hack / steal cars because they take up space?

You mean like towing cars that are parked illegally? One can not just put a car wherever one likes, renting a spot can cost quite a lot depending on where you live. When I was living in Oslo I didn't have a car but i rented my spot that came with the apartment to the neighbour for $200/month.

[omegabravo]

Towing a car is not the same as stealing a car. If someone parks illegally you are not suddenly allowed to smash the window and take it for a joy ride. Even simpler, I'm not allowed to tow anyone else's car that has parked illegally.

I don't agree with Bird's practices, but that doesn't give anyone some moral right to steal their scooters.

[tyfon]

No, but the municipality might be allowed to "steal" it. I was playing a bit of devils advocate in the previous comment.

However I've seen reckless towing destroy cars and they will hold your car until you pay up and not pay for the damages. It's a fine line.

[CaptainZapp]

Or by licensing their scooters with the citys where they dump them?

Say: One buck per day, per scooter.

Everybody wins: Scooter companies have an incentive to control the number of scooters they dump on a city and the city makes some modest money.

[saiya-jin]

Even if they would be 'stealing' public land, which is up to discussion (I wouldn't call it like that for example and law doesn't look at it that way either), justifying a crime by pointing to others 'they are doing it too' is pretty pathetic attempt to justify it. We can and shall do better than that

[lovich]

How is it up to discussion? Did they get a license or pay for it through some other avenue? Can I just park my car in your driveway without your permission? Can I use your property without permission?

If these scooter and bike companies aren't stealing by just taking land to use, I don't see how using your driveway to let my friends all park for a party could be construed as stealing.

>I wouldn't call it like that for example and law doesn't look at it that way either

That's a very general claim without merit. My municipality views it as such and has confiscated all the bird scooters and like bikes last I saw

Edit: to be fair, youre correct that a wrong doesn't justify another wrong. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna roll my eyes when one thief cries about the injustice of someone else stealing from them _as they continue to steal from me and my community without hesitation_. I do not pay property taxes and parking permit fees to maintain the roads so that some VC funded startup can use them free of charge and funnel the profits into their pocket.

[sokoloff]

Can you park a bicycle on the sidewalk? Could you leave a stroller there?

[TeMPOraL]

Personal bike? Technically probably not, but it's a known personal use nobody frowns about unless the bike is obstructing other traffic (whether foot or vehicle), at which point it'll be taken away. Commercial bike? Same as scooters.

Stroller? If you tried, somebody would probably call a bomb squad. It's not something you do with strollers.

[sokoloff]

We often left our stroller outside while visiting friends. Never had a bomb squad respond nor anyone seem to give it a second look.

[CaptainZapp]

Can you park a bicycle on the sidewalk?

Actually it depends.

Park your bike on the sidewalk in just about any Japanese city and see what happens.

[__alias]

Well these companies do lobby and bid for the rights to do so and ultimately do get permission from the local governments..

So I guess you should also yell at any other people renting public spaces which the town didn't vote for.

[CaptainZapp]

So I guess you should also yell at any other people renting public spaces which the town didn't vote for.

I don't know where you live. But I can guarantee you that businesses pay for the use of public lands herearound.

No matter if a restaurant puts tables on a sidewalk or a company hangs a up a sign that hangs into the air above public lands.

They pay for the privilege.

[tobylane]

Not always. Some London boroughs were collecting one of the early dockless bikes on sight, because permission was never asked.

[cafard]

I regard their use of space as littering, not stealing.

[konschubert]

I think we should first focus on the problem of private cars parking on public streets.

[hevi_jos]

Isn't that amazing that people could justify and rationalize everything?

You take the worst thing people can do, like assassinating people and you find always a rationalization that the criminals construct.

Hitler took absolute power because of the Reichstag fire and the communist menace and did kill people on the way to absolute power, always pointing to the bigger communist threat.

The rationalization of communist for assassinating people on the way to absolute power? They were fighting the fascist, they said.

Obviously if you could rationalize the worst it is easier to rationalize less damaging things like stealing, raping, kidnapping or hitting people.

Stealing is bad.

Scooters take way less space than cars. More than 30% of the street is taken by them. They weight 1500 kilos, several meters long and move just one person most of the time.

A scooter moves one person, weighting 20, 30 kilos at most and occupies noting compared to cars.

[TeMPOraL]

You're doing essentially the same, but in reverse.

The issue with scooters is twofold - one, tragedy of commons. A morally bankrupt company decides to abuse public space to avoid having to pay costs of arranging parking space for their scooters.

Secondary issue is that the whole business is based on having people dropping these scooters wherever, with no regard to other users of the sidewalk. And people do just that, as incentivized, and then accidents happen - for instance, people with visual impairments trip over them.

(Tertiary issue is that these scooters reach dangerous speeds. Within six months of the deployment there were already scooter-caused fatalities in Poland. Fortunately, my country is about to regulate them as motor vehicles, forcing them to use the roads. As they should.)