[jimmywanger]

> People want purpose, but they also need their basic needs met.

That means our garbage would never get collected or our toilets cleaned, because I don't think anybody's intended purpose is doing sanitation.

If you're just assigning jobs to give a purpose, you're forcing labor. If not you have dirty living quarters and a glut of artists.

[tangent128]

Make the pay high enough to match the value generated, and you'll find enough janitors and garbage collectors.

[jimmywanger]

How do you make the pay high enough? Compel labor, print money, or some sort of complicated metric?

"Based on family background, education, and IQ tests, we estimate that your best job is electrical technician."

[AnimalMuppet]

You keep raising pay until people are willing, uncoerced, to take jobs that they don't find "fulfilling". You do that just by offering money for the job. You don't try to guess who "should" take the job, you just offer it. You don't compel labor, you don't print money. You just raise the pay, and raise the rates you charge for garbage collection to pay the salaries. (And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion, because people have to have garbage service. If a home doesn't, they're probably going to be in violation of some kind of law.)

[jimmywanger]

> You don't compel labor, you don't print money.

vs two sentences later.

> And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion

Which is it? Can you compel a poor peasant farmer to stay on the farmer and grow food because that's what society needs as a right?

> If a home doesn't, they're probably going to be in violation of some kind of law.

Law itself is coercion. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. The only reason we pay taxes for stuff we might not use, like the public education system and libraries, is forced by the threat of violence and imprisonment. Would you be going to jail if you didn't pay the portion of them that went to the military? What do you think happens when you refuse to go to prison?

[AnimalMuppet]

> > And, yeah, at that point you have a bit of coercion

> Which is it? Can you compel a poor peasant farmer to stay on the farmer and grow food because that's what society needs as a right?

Of course not. You can, however, compel people to pay taxes. And you can compel people to not just throw their garbage out into the street.

If you think taxes are equal to slavery, you've never been a real slave.

[jimmywanger]

> Of course not. You can, however, compel people to pay taxes. And you can compel people to not just throw their garbage out into the street.

You cannot compel people to pay taxes, as New York discovered to its chagrin. [0] These are no longer Oregon Trail days, where to move you have to sell property and buy a stagecoach and oxen and spare axles. You just sort of buy another house in Arizona or Florida to ride out winters and don't spend more than 179 days a year in New York.

> If you think taxes are equal to slavery, you've never been a real slave.

Slavery is just an extreme form of taxation. Not only do you give up all fruits of your labor, but also give up your children from you.

If you don't believe me, you face fines for taking your kids out of public school in the US and the UK for taking your kids on vacation while school is in session. Probably because because they know better than you do what your child needs. How's that non-slavery working out for you? [1] [2]

[0] https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/State-facing-unexpec...

[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/taking-kids-school-travel/stor...

[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/family-holidays/term-time...

[_qzu7]

What if you are a garbage man and an artist? What if you collect garbage for, say, three days a week?

How much of your labor is absolutely necessary, and how much of it consists in generating surplus wealth for the benefit of your capitalist overlords?

[jimmywanger]

Depends. How much do you need to make?

Do you need broadband, the new mobile, or a car and insurance? Will 3 days working as a garbageman make you reasonably happy?

If so, please go ahead and do that and spend the rest of your time doing art.

If you really feel as though you need amazon prime and new shoes every 3 months, you better to out and make that money.

You have no right demanding that other people work to make things you're entitled to. Instead, you have to get it yourself. Learn to be a RN and figure out how to get the money, or stop complaining.

[flmontpetit]

I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others. Find something more solid to lean on than a straw man.

If those who feel entitled to the work of others enrage you, then perhaps you should point your anger at the parasitic bourgeoisie who siphon wealth away from society for doing absolutely nothing useful.

[jimmywanger]

> I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others.

Congratulations for your situation in life and happiness. Many people will never know that.

> I am a white, male software developer. I have absolutely nothing to complain about or envy others.

Then you must feel very privileged because of your ethnicity, your country of citizenship, and education.

> Find something more solid to lean on than a straw man.

You're the one that raised the example of the garbageman/artist and just because I point out some flaws in that example, your personal situation makes this a strawman?

> If those who feel entitled to the work of others enrage you, then perhaps you should point your anger at the parasitic bourgeoisie who siphon wealth away from society for doing absolutely nothing useful.

Like, maybe sit at a screen all day and tap at a keyboard once in a while? Does that count as "the parasitic bourgeoisie"?

You realize that there are people in your age group which because of differing backgrounds, live in unimaginable squalor, get paid piddling amounts of money, and fight for those jobs. Also, mess their country up with pollution because we can't do that here.

[flmontpetit]

Either you're trying to gaslight me, or we're on completely separate levels. This will be my last attempt at interfacing with you.

> Congratulations for your situation in life and happiness. Many people will never know that.

Correct.

> Then you must feel very privileged because of your ethnicity, your country of citizenship, and education.

That's the point. My political ideology is not self-serving. I am part of those who benefit from the status quo. I recognize all of that.

> You're the one that raised the example of the garbageman/artist and just because I point out some flaws in that example, your personal situation makes this a strawman?

You did not even allude to the "garbageman/artist" example. You insinuated that I was "complaining" and "feeling entitled to other people's money", which is trite conservative bullshit.

If we keep "sanitation work" and other difficult, menial tasks to their minimum rather than putting people to work for profit first and foremost, then the people who DO clean toilets and collect garbage will have more time in their week to find purpose and actualization elsewhere. Currently they are overworked and alienated and you would have us believe that's a necessary thing.

[jimmywanger]

> Either you're trying to gaslight me, or we're on completely separate levels.

See how trippingly accusations flow out of you. Seems like you're misinterpreting everything I'm saying, almost deliberately.

> This will be my last attempt at interfacing with you.

Can I have a written signed contract to that effect?

> You did not even allude to the "garbageman/artist" example. You insinuated that I was "complaining" and "feeling entitled to other people's money", which is trite conservative bullshit.

You misread that change "You have no right demanding that other people work to make things you're entitled to. Instead, you have to get it yourself. Learn to be a RN and figure out how to get the money, or stop complaining." I didn't think I had to clarify thatto "Nobody has a right...to make things one is entitled to." That doesn't flow as well.

Even though you're (I'm referring to you personally now) a white male (why does that matter) software engineer (which is a well paid professional job), you personally cannot demand a lear jet, just as a starving artist cannot demand that society supply him with supplies.

> If we keep "sanitation work" and other difficult, menial tasks to their minimum rather than putting people to work for profit first and foremost, then the people who DO clean toilets and collect garbage will have more time in their week to find purpose and actualization elsewhere.

If one (see how that works) keeps those tasks to a minimum, lots of people can't get the only job they're qualified to do. Either qualify for another job and demand more money, or make do.

They increased minimum wage at Target to 15 an hour. People are actually making less now because they cut hours, and they're absolutely dumbfounded. Or they'll automate more things.