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by tyingq 2438 days ago
"The charges don’t appear to be a case of cloud providers gouging their customers"

I disagree on this one. The margins on egress are, well...egregious.

3 comments

If I'm not mistaken AWS has the highest egress rates of the major cloud providers.
All of them (AWS, GCP, Azure) are priced outrageously compared to high quality, well peered, bandwidth.
GCP is pretty good though. Cold-potato, very fat backbone, and very good presence at a ton of PoPs. When using GCP you basically have the same global, high-bandwidth direct connectivity presence that Google uses for its products, and that is very difficult to match by traditional T1 ISPs.
Ok, help me out: "cold-potato"? :D
Vs "hot potato"

Hold onto the packet for as long as you can vs hand it off to your peer as quickly as possible.

Most networks do "hot", Google does "cold" since their network is almost always better than that of the peer.

The origin of which, for those who aren't familiar, is a game called "hot potato" where you try to pass a ball around as quickly as possible as if it was a hot potato
Weird terminology. Thanks for explaining though
It is the inverse of “hot potato” routing where the network tries to get rid of a packet as soon as possible (that is, drop a hot potato). Cold potato means the network keeps the packet on-network as long as it can.
Cold potato is not necessarily better, actually its often times worse than hot potato and usually used to lower costs so you don't have to pay other people for transit.

For example, a cold potato network may have a link from Dallas to Chicago to New York, while a hot potato network could have a direct link from Dallas to New York.

Cogent uses cold potato and is frequently worse than other transit providers.

Google's cold potato is very good though.

(Also, they offer the option to use hot potato and pay them less: https://cloud.google.com/network-tiers/docs/overview )

Thanks, you made my day.

I'm a Google network SRE, but perhaps I'll get new business cards saying "cold potato engineer".

So it's hard to value the premium for google cold potato specifically, if it outclasses everything else.

But their hot potato still costs $65+ per TB at medium volumes and $45+ per TB at high volumes. That is still extremely high compared to normal peering costs.

It does have advantages, but it's not always worth the difference of "several cents per GB" versus "fractions of a cent per GB".
Walmart is generally cheaper than a steak restaurant. YMMV, and they both have their uses. Its worth going to both.
That's a very odd analogy, and overstating the difference.
My company was getting massive bills on AWS S3 egress. It was one of the reasons we moved to Wasabi for bucket storage; we then had to deal with a huge one time hit for egress, but in the long run the short term cost was worth it.
Do you think Wasabi is sustainable? I looked at them but find it hard to believe they can sustain free unlimited egress forever.
I like the Cloudflare/Backblaze duo. Presumably data stays on Cloudflare's network for as long as possible and goes to Backblaze via direct links, so Backblaze can provide free egress to Cloudflare customers (and customers of other serivces like Packet, etc.), while charging others.

This seems more sustainable than Wasabi's model, but there's no way of knowing for sure.

I just put 1 TB in AWS/Azure/GCP's cost calculators.

AWS (US East 1, no free tier) - $92.07

Azure (East US) - $88.65

GCP (Americals) - $122.88

I'm quite surprised by GCP being the highest cost here, and by such a wide margin.

Backblaze has good rates, but it's only really good for storage...which is their main use. I am also surprised GCS (GCP?) is so high. Last a checked AWS was the highest, maybe they cut their rates. I am a pretty happy Azure customer. My only complaint really are their service plans being subpar, but now I've switched over to their IaaS model and it's much better.
The point is to make it easy to move data in and hard to move it out.
Yup. It is like a gravity well. Escape velocity is your egress data charges ;)
Doctor Who: World Enough and Time
Someone should set up a big fat pipe right outside of Amazon data centers with free unlimited transfers, get data on behalf of customers copied to hard drives from AWS, and then attach those hard drives to the Uber pipe. I bet that service could work for a short & glorious moment in time.
Amazon beat you to it: https://aws.amazon.com/snowball/
Snowball still charges ~3 cents/GB to get it out of S3 and into Snowball.
Keeping track of all the different offerings AWS has is a full time job.
no prices. don't underestimate the bandwidth of a fully loaded tractor trailer, 21st century style
I'm disappointed that one doesn't appear to be available via API.
That would still require egress.
How about just sending Freedom Of Information Act request to the NSA asking them for a copy of your data. I think this is a joke...
Government agencies can (and often do) charge FOIA processing fees. Not that this has anything to do with cloud egress charges though.
I was going to say it’d be an improvement but I can’t actually make sense of the AWS Snowball proving

https://aws.amazon.com/snowball/pricing/

The pricing seems relatively clear:

A flat fee for the act of a human getting the data onto the physical medium ($200) + the cost of shipping (<$100?) + $15 per day you keep the snowball device past the first + price per GB of data you're transferring ($0.03 per/GB).

So if your getting out 30 TB of data that's $200 + ~$100 + ($0.03 * 30000) = ~$1200

I was confused by the “Standard Amazon S3 storage and request pricing applies.” That seems to be a different thing from the extra S3 transfer costs.
Does Amazon want that, though? There are efforts for other providers to avoid bandwidth cost: https://www.cloudflare.com/bandwidth-alliance/ but Amazon isn't in there
Just like a roach motel!
or Hotel California ...
At some point everyone realized they could charge a massive premium per bit and as long as everyone did it, customers would have to pay. So here we are.
Customers are also to blame, when comparing the costs of two services they tend to look at the cost of an instance hour, or lambda execution and often don't look at transfer costs.

Even if a cloud provider had competitive transfer costs they likely wouldn't attract any new customers and would have less margin left over to subsidize the main cost customers look at, $ per instance hour.

The less attention is paid to transfer costs the better for AWS/GCP/Azure. Why hasn't a spot-market for transfer been introduced? Same reason why I can't sell my unused home internet bandwidth to my neighbors, the money is in controlling the means of transportation/communication and the providers want to keep as tight a control on that as possible.

I wouldn't blame customers when the pricing for data transfer looks like this: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/open-guides/og-aws/master/...

(Source Open Guide to AWS - https://github.com/open-guides/og-aws)

This seems a little deliberately obtuse -- for example, showing two arrows from an EC2 instance to an EC2 instance that exits the VPC. But I generally don't find this too hard to follow? Traffic within an AZ is generally free, but there are some cases where it's not and they generally make sense to me (leaving the VPC, pushing data from your CDN back upstream, etc.)

Then again, I worked for AWS for years, so maybe I'm just used to thinking this way so I'm not really surprised by it.

There was a time when you paid for available bandwidth. Then network operators realized they could oversell their capacity and not spend the money to upgrade their network.

You still see paying for bandwidth with residential connections, though some operators (like Comcast) are trying to do away with it.

>But I generally don't find this too hard to follow?

This is just the static picture though. What's harder to predict are the consequences of some innocuous looking code change.

Sure, but surely teams have monitoring on their usage, right? With automated rollbacks or at least one click manual rollbacks?
I don't think this is true. At $JOB the extent of our cloud cost management is me reading a breakdown by SKU and looking for obvious inefficiencies, and we are very aware of transit fees. I would imagine that anyone in the 5MM+ range has actual models that account for this stuff.
I think this has more to do with collusion than consumer behavior. On average consumers are very rational, even if their rationality is hard to explain.

The issue with per-bit pricing is that a fair agreement for network use would probably look like paying a fee that makes up for the amortization of the network equipment. Anything else is an artificially restricted market created in an attempt to extract more value out of consumers by having them bid against each other.

At some point, yes, we will run out of places to put the switches and routers and then the cost of connectivity will be closer to the cost of land use and will mimic rent, but we are a ways away from that.

Why do you think that bandwidth costs should only cover the hardware? What about the electricity, rent, payroll, sales, marketing, administrative staff, insurance, accountants, lawyers, etc.
Well, by hardware I meant its maintenance as well. Doing so still leads you initially to the sale of bandwidth, not a bidding system.
> Why hasn't a spot-market for transfer been introduced?

Enron tried to create a market for this.

[0] https://www.wired.com/2001/11/enron-a-bandwidth-bloodbath/