[bronson]

By US-based mentality, you mean one where it's OK to design an automation system that takes input from a single sensor? And this is somehow OK for American pilots, but not for foreigners?

I think evidence will show you're wrong. The MCAS is a terrible design no matter where you intend to fly it.

[privateSFacct]

Yes - automation in the US context has historically evolved with pilots pilots considered a key and reliable redundancy. So yes - the automation is not full automation / full redundancy. The idea has (historically) been then that the pilots bring overall safety to required standard and the pilot is the redundancy. The evidence in the US has showed that this approach works from everything from stab trim cutout issues to dual engine failures.

In the US, efforts in last years have focused on the entire chain of safety (actually away from plane design) and the US has hit some of the BEST periods of safety in aviation. This is everything from duty / rest periods, maintenance, minimum training requirements etc.

"And this is somehow OK for American pilots, but not for foreigners?"

Let's be VERY clear here:

The requirement to fly Part 121 in US even as just a first officer requires an ATP and 1,500 hours. Most folks have a a significant amount of other flying prior to that, the US has a much bigger GA aviation scene, private flight instruction, glider, private jet / charter markets and military flying. The US has something like 12,000 pilots flying for the air force alone. The first officer on your long flight is very very likely to have a TON of experience in all sorts of situations, and particularly with manual flying.

Overseas - you can be a graduate with an academic / training background only and 250 hrs of "flight time" more broadly defined and be at the controls. Ethiopian airline pilots were 25 and 29 years old.

In the US, major carriers even more picky.

Southwest for example:

Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command* is preferred. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. "Other Time" will not be considered.

So yes, if boeing is going to sell into markets with folks getting into cockpit as co-pilots with sometimes as low as 50 hrs (1 week) of experience (in cadet / training systems) then 100% they will need to redesign and rethink things for this future pilot population - and yes, that means the systems will have to have MUCH more natural redundancy built in.

Ignoring this difference in background, opportunity and skill will lead to lots more deaths - all preventable if the thinking changes and a better understanding of future pilot populations is developed, and that includes accounting for differences in training and experience.

[bronson]

You hype up reliance on US pilot training, but ignore Boeing's intent to NOT train pilots on MCAS (and especially its differences from existing behavior). Plenty of US pilots have gone on record saying that their US-based MAX-8 training left them unprepared to fly the MAX-8 as it was originally delivered.

In fact, even the Southwest pilots you mention disagree with you: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/in-sc...

You're still trying really hard to blame the pilots and ignore critical and unarguable airframe deficiencies. It hasn't worked yet but maybe if you keep writing lots and lots of words you'll get somewhere.

[privateSFacct]

And despite no training we have what may have been some amazingly good MCAS recoveries within the US during takeoff into things like turbulence triggered MCAS nosedowns - pilots thought their own fault / couldn't understand what was going on but the limited reports in terms of response are great for totally untrained situations. I'm sure pilots were pissed, they should be!

I think you are failing to understand how the chain of safety works. Ideally you have a great design. If you don't then ideally the flaws / weaknesses don't get hit because you have things like good maintenance. If you don't have that then maybe next hope is the pilots. Worst case you then you require instrumentation to help reduce risk of the next tragedy. Etc.

This system has resulted in an incredibly safe mode of transport despite many challenges / crazy tolerances etc.

[bronson]

"Amazingly good MCAS recoveries" are a crew success, yes, but they are even more a sign of aircraft and regulatory failure. You aren't acknolwedging that the MAX-8 has serious issues no matter where the pilot learned to fly.

American pilots are top notch. However, the pilots themselves don't want to be put in the position of saving the aircraft, and a big part of the FAA's charter is to ensure that they don't have to.

Does your chain of safety include feeding a twitchy automated system from a single sensor?