[jacquesm]

The two crashes are the final outcome of a structural failing of Boeing at all levels, from engineering to manufacturing to management. The fact that they did not speak out until it was much too late is evidence of that coverup, if they had been up front about any of this the second crash could have surely been avoided and if they had simply done the right thing and name the 737 differently and obtained proper type certification without MCAS it would have avoided the first one as well.

[AnimalMuppet]

To review: Aperocky said that this is a full coverup. spaceandshit asked for sources (evidence) to demonstrate that this is a coverup. You said that the bodies are evidence. I said that they're evidence of crashes, but not evidence of a coverup. You said that the fact that "they" didn't speak out until much too late is evidence of a coverup.

Once again, I say, that isn't evidence of a coverup. So far the only "evidence" of a coverup is your claim, and Aperocky's claim. Stop just making claims. What is your evidence?

(Why isn't "they didn't speak out until too late" evidence of a coverup? "Some people had doubts and expressed it in an email that's now all over the press" is not a coverup. Did they have hard data? Can you prove it? Did they deliberately try to keep that data from reaching the FAA, the press, and the public? Can you prove it?)

[Edit: And no, "it was misbehaving in sim when I flew it" isn't data, either. It's anecdote. Was the sim correct? Did they know the sim was correct?]

[jacquesm]

Asking for sources is the internet way of shutting down any argument when you know that whatever sources there are are not going to be made public in the foreseeable future.

But there is more than enough smoke to conclude there is fire, even absent handy incriminating smoking guns in .pdf format. Enough people knew about this and decided not to talk about it when it mattered with two very serious crashes as a result. If you want to chalk that up to innocent mistakes then you really should read up on the whole thing from day #1 and how long Boeing held the line that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the aircraft.

I thought we were well past the stage where this would even need to be argued at all. Asking for proof I'll leave to the courts, in the meantime, even absent proof I'll take my chances in making up my own mind. This may led me astray but if proof to the contrary surfaces I'll be more than happy to adjust. But for now the various narratives seem to support a cover up a lot better than an organization that is transparent about its mistakes and forthcoming with documentation supporting that story.

[FabHK]

This might be, but the argument needs to be made. Two Sukhoi Superjet 100 have crashed - is that proof that “there’s something seriously wrong with [Sukhoi]’s culture”? Well, maybe, maybe not.