[throwaway981211]

Throwaway account. I’ve been with Amazon as an engineer for about 7 years now. We call ourselves diverse but really all we have are Asian (Indian and Chinese) devs... in some engineering orgs, white people outside of management are a minority (although it’s not just white managers, there’s tons of Indian managers too).

We have very few black people in engineering roles. I don’t know a single black engineer at this company to be honest and I’ve been here 7 years and interface with lots of other teams.

I don’t think the Indian or Chinese devs get paid less. The one data point I do have (anecdotal) is that every Indian dev I’ve met is generally on a spectrum between unhappy to extremely unhappy, and they’re only in their role because it’s very difficult to find another company that will sponsor you. So you either keep your mouth shut or risk getting let go and have to leave the country:

Amazons work culture is pretty shitty in many orgs - very cut throat. I’ve never seen the more horrific examples from the NYTimes article years ago about people crying at their desks, but I’ve been in enough contentious meetings and have seen people purposely set up to fail by their managers so they could be managed out because politics.

[immigrant-h1b]

Yes, Indian and Chinese devs are unhappy because the H1B system unfairly exploits them and makes them wait for > 10yrs to be allowed to permanently stay. Of course, American companies are getting richer on their labor and their citizen co-workers get away with doing less while making more money. However, anytime there is a discussion on wages, blame them for everything. Learn to respect the guys on whose work Silicon Valley is what it is today.

[tbyehl]

US immigration is racist and broken.

But can we stop kidding ourselves that H-1B holders seeking permanent status are innocent victims? They're exploiting a loophole (dual-intent) to immigrate where they otherwise would have a difficult time qualifying for an immigration visa. They've willingly accepted the trade-offs.

[NTDF9]

> But can we stop kidding ourselves that H-1B holders seeking permanent status are innocent victims? They're exploiting a loophole (dual-intent) to immigrate where they otherwise would have a difficult time qualifying for an immigration visa. They've willingly accepted the trade-offs.

It's a loophole? That's news to me. Outside of family and extraordinary abilities (think Nobel prize winners), what other way is there for someone to immigrate?

If there are any immigrants to be attracted, it is this pool of people. Well educated, speak english, no crime and not moochers. What other alternative people do you want to support your social security system?

[tbyehl]

> It's a loophole?

Well, call it what you want. Originally the H-1 program was for temporary non-immigrant workers. Intent matters when someone enters any country -- if someone is determined by the immigration authorities to have intent to immigrate, but only holds a non-immigrant visa or waiver, they'll be denied entry.

In the 90s the H-1 program was made dual-intent, as in, intent to immigrate would not disqualify someone from entry, setting the stage for the present mass exploitation of H-1B workers.

> what other way is there for someone to immigrate?

Like I said, US immigration is racist and broken. I don't know how we solve it, aside from obvious of creating other paths to legal immigration and phasing out H-1B's dual-intent status so that immigration doesn't turn into exploitation.

From the immigrants' perspective the obvious thing to do is vote with your feet -- go somewhere else or stay in their home country -- but so many people want to come to America that it's hard to imagine reaching a critical mass to effect policy change.

[NTDF9]

> In the 90s the H-1 program was made dual-intent, as in, intent to immigrate would not disqualify someone from entry, setting the stage for the present mass exploitation of H-1B workers.

Do you know why this was done? Because the bureaucracy went out of whack and caused massive delays in the real immigration steps aka green cards.

If anything, H-1 is the only way right now because US govt can't function like a developed country. The H-1s are not to blame. They are just like you and I. And they are the kind of immigrants I want to sustain our population and economy.

[belltaco]

How is dual intent exploiting a loophole? Congress clearly intended it to be used as a pathway to a greencard.

[thbr99]

This has been discussed many time in HN. Indian and Chineese H1Bs can keep complaining or they can immigrate to Canada with Express Entry system which levels the playing field. Business will soon follow. I made the switch and it has improved my life and career in many wonderful ways.

One sad thing I see though is they consider Canada as Plan B. They will get their permanent residency visa but will still stay in US.

[jahlove]

What I've heard is that Canada pays significantly less for Software Engineering talent than the US does. True?

https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Developer/...

[thbr99]

Not significantly, but less. I get the double of that avg salary mentioned in that link. (I am a 10 years exp dev)

But I think the salaries will go up as more US companies setup shops here as the talent pool rises because of economic immigration.

I consider the pay ok because I get healthcare for free, do not have to worry about my visa, childcare is cheaper, spouses can work, my Canadian equivalent of 401k will not be lost like when I was in US on H1B. If I ever want to work in US, I can work on TN visa too.

It also depends on what you want. I opted for certainty and a good family life over the money.

[vsskanth]

8 years ago, Canada was not even in the radar. Today, it is plan B for Indian tech professionals in the US and quickly becoming plan A for Indian students applying to study abroad. As the ecosystem improves, future inflow of talent will tilt towards Canada. Change takes time.

[paxys]

I had seriously considered moving to Vancouver (from SF) earlier this year, and had job opportunities lined up, but seeing the salary numbers was shocking. Vancouver is an expensive city, about on par with the bay area, but moving there meant taking a 40-50% pay cut. Toronto isn't much better either.

I would love to live there one day, but they really need more competitive salaries if they want to lure talent from the US tech hubs.

[jammygit]

Not sure why the downvotes. Canadian companies are not into paying people very well, instead we get news stories about massive outsourcing to India followed by security breaches a few years later (eg, see the news over the last year or two about almost every single one of our major banks)

[Spooky23]

In my experience, it's a reflection of the organization. Shitty workplaces treat people with a little less leverage shitty.

I have also observed in some places that in some ways, diverse management structure is worse for some workers. White managers tend to be ignorant of subdivisions of asian society and treat all contractors or sponsored employees with aloof and impersonal management styles.

[what_do_u_mean9]

Could you give examples of subdivisions of Asian society that a manager should take into consideration?

[Spooky23]

One glaring example that comes to mind from many years ago was a borderline abusive boss, who was an older chinese national, that treated younger ethnic chinese staff born in the US or other places very poorly. His mindset was that they were coddled, soft and lazy. The company HR people addressed the situation inappropriately as an interpersonal conflict because it didn't fit their notion of discrimination, which is what it was.

End of the day, it was a situation that was demeaning and awful for my colleagues who dealt with it, and they all left the company. The company no longer exists, but it was an example of an organization that focuses on the letter of the law and fostered a culture that ultimately hurt it.

[jahlove]

> I’ve never seen the more horrific examples from the NYTimes article years ago about people crying at their desks

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-...

[jammygit]

I know a very bright Indian guy who was frustrated with the American system, so he immigrated to Canada instead. Come on up, we’ll take you!