[pg]

It's so broadly the goal of the language that many things do, often in small ways. For example, it turns out to be really convenient that strings are simply lists of characters. It means all the list manipulation functions just work on them. And the where special form and zap macro make it much easier to define operators that modify things. The advantage of Bel is a lot of small things like that rather than a single killer feature.

Making bel.bel shorter was one of my main goals during this project. It has a double benefit. Since the Bel source is a Bel program, the shorter I can make it, the more powerful Bel must be. Plus a shorter source is (pathological coding tricks excepted) easier to understand, which means Bel is better in that way too. There were many days when I'd make bel.bel 5 lines shorter and consider it a successful day's work.

One of the things I found helped most in making programs shorter was higher order functions. These let you get rid of variables, which are a particularly good thing to eliminate from code when you can. I found that higher order functions combined with intrasymbol syntax could often collapse something that had been a 4 line def into a 1 line set.

[massung]

> For example, it turns out to be really convenient that strings are simply lists of characters.

Statements such as these are very academic and concerning - to me - when it comes to new languages. And they make me wary of whether or not the language will ever move out of the land of theory and into practice.

Continuing with the "strings are cons lists" theme... Other, very notable languages have tried this in the past: Erlang and Haskell immediately come to mind. And - without exception - they all end up regretting that decision once the language begins being used for real-world applications that require even a moderate level of performance.

Lisp programmers (among which I count myself) are very fond of pointing to new languages and identifying all their "features" that were implemented in Lisp decades ago (so not "new"). And they also bemoan when a language design doesn't take a moment to learn from the mistakes of those that came before them. Strings as lists is very much in the latter case.

The above said, the idea of streams as a fundamental type of the language (as opposed to a base class, type class, or what-have-you) is quite intriguing. Here's hoping they are more than just byte streams.

[edw]

As I read about strings-as-lists, I tried to maintain sight of one of the premises of PG's exercise -- that the language is climbing a ladder of abstractions in the non-machine realm.

The reality of 2019 is that strings are not random access objects -- they are either empty or composed of the first char and the rest of the chars. A list is the proper primary abstraction for strings.

That is, if "list" is not a data structure but a mathematical concept -- based on the concept of "pair." If I were a Clojure or Swift programmer -- and I'm both, I'd say there are protocols that embody Listness and Pairness, and an implementation would have multiple dispatch that allows an object to deliver on the properties of those protocols. There are other fundamental concepts, though, that deserve inclusion in a language.

Is something suitable as the first argument of `apply`? Functions obviously are, but to Clojure programmers, hash tables and arrays are (and continuations are to Schemers) just as function or relation-like as a procedure. This is so obviously a good idea to me that I am irritated when a language doesn't support the use of random-access or dictionary-like collections as function-like objects.

Which brings us to random-access and dictionary-like objects. Those should have protocols. And given that sets are 1) not relations and 2) are incredibly important, set-like and perhaps bag-like itself deserve support.

At minimum, a designer should think through the protocols they want to support in a deep way and integrate those into the language. Maximally, protocols would be first-class features of a language, which is what I'd prefer, because a protocol-driven design is so often so much more productive than an OO one.

PG's plans with respect to all of the above are what really interest me. IIRC Arc embodied some of these concepts (arrays-as-functions), so at the moment I'm content to watch him climb this ladder that he's building as he goes and see what comes of it.

[Edit: various typos and grammatical errors.]

[a1369209993]

I don't think they're claiming that strings should be random access. Rather, I think they're objecting to the notion that strings should be sequences at all, rather than scalars (a la perl).

[dbaupp]

Speaking of performance and streams, it seems streams are not even byte streams: they are bit streams (rdb and wrb).

[notduncansmith]

> For example, it turns out to be really convenient that strings are simply lists of characters. It means all the list manipulation functions just work on them.

Why is it preferable to couple the internal implementation of strings to the interface “a list of characters”? Also, since “character” can be an imprecise term, what is a character in Bel?

[fao_]

> Also, since “character” can be an imprecise term, what is a character in Bel?

Exactly. How is unicode and UTF-8 treated by this language?

[jdc]

While we're down here in the weeds[0]...

A good way to do it IMO, is for each character to be unicode grapheme cluster[2].

0. "This is not a language you can use to program computers, just as the Lisp in the 1960 paper wasn't."[1]

1. https://sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/bellanguage.txt?t=157...

2. http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr29/#Grapheme_Cluster_Bounda...

[fao_]

> A good way to do it IMO, is for each character to be unicode grapheme cluster[2].

I would agree. However, for the sake of argument,

The width of a grapheme cluster depends on whether something is an emoji or not, which for flags, depends on the current state of the world. The combining characters (u)(k) are valid as one single grapheme cluster (a depiction of the UK's flag), which is not valid if the UK splits up, for example. This is only one single example, there are many others, that demonstrate that there is basically no 'good' representation of 'a character' in a post-UTF8 world.

[partdavid]

At this point Bel doesn't even have numbers. A character is axiomatically a character, not some other thing (like a number in a character set encoding). Isn't it premature to talk about character set encoding or even representation yet? A character is a character because it's a character. But I haven't nearly read through these documents so perhaps I'm not understanding something.

[krapp]

As far as I know a "character" is a number in a character set. "A character is a character because it's a character" doesn't make any sense, at least not in the context of a programming language. A character is a character because it maps to a letter or glyph, and that requires a specific encoding.

The Bel spec contains the following:

    2. chars

    A list of all characters. Its elements are of the form (c . b), where
    c is a character and b is its binary representation in the form of a 
    string of \1 and \0 characters. 

In other words, even in Bel a character is still a "number" in a character set encoding. The "binary representation" isn't mentioned as being a specific encoding, which means it's assumed to be UTF08 or ASCII.

Also, Bel does have numbers, apparently implemented as pairs. Go figure.

[jdc]

That's actually an interesting point for a Unicode mailing-list, but as long as I can farm grapheme-splitting out to I'm happy.

[KajMagnus]

> the shorter I can make it, the more powerful Bel must be

Yes, well, until some limit, when the code becomes harder and harder and eventually too hard and concise, for humans to easily understand? :- )

I wonder if humans sometimes understand better, read faster, with a little bit verbosity. I sometimes expand a function-style one-liner I wrote, to say three imperative lines, because, seems like simpler to read, the next time I'm at that place again. — I suppose though, this is a bit different from the cases you have in mind.

Best wishes with Bel anyway :- )

[klipt]

> One of the things I found helped most in making programs shorter was higher order functions. These let you get rid of variables, which are a particularly good thing to eliminate from code when you can. I found that higher order functions combined with intrasymbol syntax could often collapse something that had been a 4 line def into a 1 line set.

How do Bel's higher order facilities compare to Haskell's? E.g. https://wiki.haskell.org/Pointfree