[Teever]

Can I ask you why you have this particular hope?

Is it because you are a user of apple products and hope that you will continue to do so in the future because you are dependent on them?

Is it because you believe that apple is a good company and you hope for the best for them?

Why should we hope for the best for a company that has made hundreds of billions off of offshoring jobs to an authoritarian country with little regard for investing in manufacturing in America?

The way I see it is that if China decides to squeeze Apple by restricting their production it will be a fair comeuppance for a company that has seen fit to extract billions in wealth from developers through their app store and has sought to turn their commodity hardware into status symbols to extract even more wealth from middle class people who want to feel like they're more than middle class.

If the executives at Apple had any foresight and any interest beyond self interest they would have encouraged domestic production a decade or more ago. Instead we have a situation where people are crying for poor Apple, a company who that has more money than god and who could have used that to create their own supply chain domestically which would have had tremendous benefits for America and the American people.

Instead they have chose to consort and ultimately enable an authoritarian country into a situation where they now pose a legitimate threat both militarily and culturally to America, the albeit flawed but last best hope for freedom in the world.

Think different indeed.

[awinder]

Yeah, this is a super-weird anti-Apple flex. There’s a lot of problems with it, mostly that damn near every tech product is manufactured in China, or using majority components manufactured in China, etc. But here’s the biggest problem I have. China deliberately wanted to focus on this type of manufacturing for decades. You don’t just decide you’re going to manufacture iPhones and then poof in 6 months you’re running world-class operations. It would take untold time and dollars to develop these capabilities in a human workforce in America. What you’re all hopped up about, has literally no chance of happening.

I too have qualms with what is going on in China, but like everything that happens in this life, I’m flipping petrified of how much damage some reactionary american screed might do.

[ppf]

China accepts child labour, and runs ethnic concentration camps. Have you forgotten that standing up for what is right can result in negative personal consequences? Or have Americans gotten so used to consequence-free "protesting" of whatever is the current bogeyman in their safe country? This might be the most spineless and gutless comment I have seen on HN. If you ever wonder how people accept large-scale atrocities, here is the answer. They don't want any disruption to their supply of affordable iPhones.

[awinder]

If this is the most spineless and gutless comment you’ve read on hackernews, then welcome to hackernews and I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy the first comment you read here. Jesus, what an overreaction.

[ppf]

Fine, but don't pretend you care about human rights in any context.

[awinder]

Get help. Seriously. I don’t know why you’re keying in on me for making a comment about how Apple can’t just magically relocate millions of jobs to the US as being some kind of bad person. I’m purposefully not discussing the moral side of this, I’m rebutting the parents claim that Apple should just throw money at this and fix it. They can’t.

[ppf]

Your first paragraph was on-point. I'm talking about the second one:

> I too have qualms with what is going on in China, but like everything that happens in this life, I’m flipping petrified of how much damage some reactionary american screed might do.

You make a moral statement about the activities of China, and then you say you're scared of the repercussions of taking any action.

[14]

You do realize how much money Apple makes right? They absolutely have the money to run these capabilities in America. They also have enough money they could do it in a timely manner. What they know would happen is the cost to actually manufacture an iPhone would shoot through the roof and they would be left either making less profit to sell the phone at the same price point it always has been, or they will have to dramatically reduce shareholder return. They don't want to do either of those things obviously because right now new iPhone cost around 1000$ and it is probably close to what the market will bare. So their only option would be reduce shareholder return and I think that is the only thing stopping them from moving home. Simply put they would not make as much profit.

[pwinnski]

Is your argument that their manufacturing costs would increase by less than 30%? Or that you expect Apple to fold as a company?

You state "they absolutely have the money to run these capabilities in America." Apple's published margin on hardware is 30%, so if manufacturing in America increases costs by 30%, Apple no longer makes a profit selling hardware. If manufacturing increases costs by more than 30%, Apple starts losing money selling hardware.

Big numbers are big because Apple is selling many, many, many phones. That also means that adding to the cost of manufacturing by even a small amount per unit immediately chews up a lot of those outrageous profits.

[tooltalk]

Apple buys iPhones wholesale from CMs (contract manufacturer) like Foxconn, Pegatron, etc for only $250-$350 and sells them for around $799-$1000 retail. The cost of labor (ie, final assembly; aka, manufacturing) in iPhone BOM, often born by CM's, is around $10-$12 per device.

[lovetocode]

This is spot on. I really enjoyed the point you made how this is karma for robbing App Store developers. I am not sure I understand the cultural threat though. Militarily from a cyber perspective they are certainly a threat.

[tonyedgecombe]

It's pointless expecting corporations do make those sort of sacrifices, it would be economic suicide.

[greggman2]

Didn't pressure work for companies in South Africa? Didn't pressure work for catching dolphins in fish nets? Note I have no idea if those were effective. I was too young to know. I just remember lots of talk about it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement

https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/united-states-cons...

[TeMPOraL]

It's only economic suicide because people don't expect those "sacrifices". The market doesn't value ethics on its own, it has to be made to value it - by things like public expectations, customer pressure, or regulations.

[vharuck]

If a company chooses to heavily invest in a nation with limited freedoms, the suicide started when the decision was made. Not when the consequences start to hurt.

[throwaway2048]

Yep, the idea that companies should be given a free pass to act with utter amorality because they put themselves in a situation where they are obliged to do so is ridiculous.

[LilBytes]

I very much doubt it would be suicide, it'd be an economic inconvenience. But even that cause hell to freeze over for their stock holders even if the loss was only momentary.

Publicly held companies will rarely choose the good of the public over the good of their stockholders unless given fiscal incentives through tax increases or tax decreases.

Unless they become as wealthy as Bill Gates and make a non-profit with their enormous wealth.

[lotsofpulp]

Given that I don’t see ANY large companies that don’t manufacture or assemble in China, especially electronics, I don’t see how one can claim it would not be economic suicide.

Consumers have chosen their priorities, and they’re only able/willing to spend a little bit extra for a better product. They’re not going to spend that much more for more expensive labor too.

[mattacular]

Interesting that you attempt lay some blame for the situation on consumers who have "chosen their priorities"

That is absurd. Consumers have absolutely no choice in the matter other than the most unpractical "avoid using modern electronics"

[lotsofpulp]

They did at some point in the past. Large portions of the US manufacturing and textile sector disappeared because people opted for the cheaper imported items. I don’t see any reason to assume they would be willing to pay more for labor now either.

[paulryanrogers]

With increasingly depressed wages I do wonder at what point counterproductive choices become self reinforcing. Such as buying the cheapest even if it's long term cost is higher until there are no other options.

[mattacular]

I wonder if that has anything to do when flattening wages over the same period. I wonder if that has anything to do with trade and economic policy. Or you could just chalk it up to individual consumer choices (and their crazy preference for cheaper goods suddenly and magically on offer) if you'd rather not think much.

[Teever]

Apple products have always been premium items that people choose to pay more for.

Apple could have simply raised their prices to account for differences in domestic manufacturing costs or swallowed the cost with decreased profit margins.

[eastendguy]

Samsung announced a few weeks ago to move all its (phone) manufacturing outside China:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-samsung-elec-china/samsun...

[tooltalk]

Samsung is already gone. Samsung had foresight and is well diversified. The company started packing up and moving to Vietnam at their peak in China back in 2013. Most of their smartphones now come from Vietnam (and Samsung's Vietnam operation alone accounts for 1/4 of all export from Vietnam).

[tuyhtoolots]

> Samsung had foresight and is well diversified

By moving from one communist dictatorship to another communist dictatorship.

[lotsofpulp]

Yes, and it’s going to Thailand and Vietnam and India, where the cost of inputs is cheapest (including dealing with government, the costs of which are going up in China).

[tooltalk]

Thailand No. It's mostly Vietnam -- and India possibly in near future. Sure, the wage is much lower in Vietnam, but the downside was that the country was known for low-cost textile and toys production until Samsung came along. There was literally no infrastructure for electronics production to speak of in those days and the company not only had to work with the gov't to build it from scratch, but also had to convince 200+ suppliers and contractors to move along with them.

[foogazi]

>a company that has seen fit to extract billions in wealth from developers through their app store

This doesn’t make sense - App Store is a voluntary program no one is forced to develop apps for iPhone, or even android

[m10i]

You didn't mention taxes. Doesn't Apple offshore their earnings as well?

[csommers]

Why would you NOT want to have that hope? Being reliant upon China for anything is a huge no-no.

[eternalban]

This is a fair rant all around, but in my opinion your righteous anger is misplaced.

Apple, as other nominally American "multi-national" corporations, was and remains subject to government policy and plans.

Which institutions, centers of power, and influential individuals determined that the de-industrialization of United States was such a hot idea and pushed that to its extremes in the 90s?

Apple simply operated in the stated and promoted policy regime. They are not alone.

(Also cross your fingers regarding your "last hopes". Patriot Act. Secret courts. Permanent state of "national emergency" with attendant curtailment of our Natural Rights, "Surveillance Capitalism", ...)

[goatinaboat]

Which institutions, centers of power, and influential individuals determined that the de-industrialization of United States was such a hot idea and pushed that to its extremes in the 90s?

It’s worth remembering that in the 90s, Francis Fukuyama was the hottest philosopher around and there was a general belief that economic liberalisation would inevitably lead a country towards Western style democracy and all that entailed. No one, certainly no one as prominent as Fukuyama ever predicted the opposite would in fact occur.

Not that this excuses Apple or anyone else. Once it became apparent they should have acted urgently. Because it meant that all their basic assumptions about how the world works need to be re-evaluated.

[aiscapehumanity]

Lol people like baudrilllard, gilles, and guattari had better 21st century predictions then fukuyama. Fukuyama is like the starwars of 90s philosophy, mainstream tripe.

[goatinaboat]

Sure but I didn’t assert he was the greatest philosopher, only the most popular, the star of the show.

He has since renounced his 90s work, to be fair.

[FabHK]

And arguably his 90s work has been caricatured and mischaracterised, too.

[mistermann]

Ross Perot had a thing or two to say about the economic wisdom of offshoring America's manufacturing.

[pseudalopex]

Would Fukuyama have been as prominent if he predicted the opposite?

[eternalban]

Fukuyama simply wrote a book. It strains credulity to think a single book moved the entire Western establishment to radically alter the status quo.

[goatinaboat]

The End Of History wasn’t just a book, it was the whole fin-de-siecle zeitgeist. I guess you had to be there. He was the Anna Kournikova of philosophy back then.

[eternalban]

I was there.

p.s.: https://www.newsbud.com/2018/02/09/the-rockefellers-and-roth...

(No, this news is not "fit to print" in The New York Times.)