[zozbot234]

Most of the worst/most visible bullies probably have narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies. Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. "Their own psychology" is all about thinking of the world in zero-sum terms, where they win if others lose.

The only approach that can partially make up for such an attitude is cognitive-behavioral training, and then only for those who are smart enough that the lessons can sink in, overcoming their distrust of others, authority figures etc.

[saagarjha]

> Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place.

I think most bullies are not psychopaths, considering that many don’t stay bullies their entire life.

[zozbot234]

But the worst bullies probably are. Thwart the psychopaths first, and you'll probably find that others will lack any reason to bully in the first place - they will no longer be thinking of it as "normal".

[LorenPechtel]

Not all psychopaths are bullies. They can learn to behave even if they lack the emotions to care about others.

[andoofthewoods]

that's a huge assumption you're making.

Narcissists and Sociopaths make up 1% of the population each. To characterise most young bullies as narcissists/sociopaths when A - Their brains are still developing, and B - They're at an impressionable age where their sociability is highly moulded by their environment (e.g. parents) is disingenuous.

[Nasrudith]

I suspect we have even worse matters than the 1% - they are often contagious as you see their actions and rationalizations adopted by not technically sociopaths and narcissists because they are rewarded for it. And just like other conditioned for behavior done independently of when it would actually help them.

[andoofthewoods]

Everyone has sociopaths and narcissistic tendencies to varying degrees. But to say that "most" bullies are sociopaths or narcissists that can't be helped like OP said (before editing their comment) misunderstands people period.

Adolescents don't have the developed perception of consequence as adults, and yet OP is already pinning them with mental disorders that can't be resolved. Pure speculation that is outright wrong.

In the case that you mention with learned anti-social behaviours, counselling can most definitely help with unmapping/correcting those behaviours.

[zozbot234]

> "most" bullies are sociopaths or narcissists

Um, I never said that. I talked about tendencies, just like you did. It's not very meaningful to say what bullies "are", but bullying does generally involve at least some degree of instrumental aggression and callous/unempathetic attitudes. Such attitudes might arise out of simple imitation like you said, but only if someone else is actively demonstrating them - and this will generally be someone in the peer group who holds significant social influence on others.

[zozbot234]

> you see their actions and rationalizations adopted by not technically sociopaths and narcissists

Yup, that's the real issue. The sociopaths and narcissists may only be 2% to 4% of the population but those are the actual bullies, so to speak - those who are most clever at manipulating others into adopting similar behaviors and attitudes. Thus some youths who seem to be bullies may actually be victims of manipulation by somebody they look up to, but they will stop their behavior once the attitude around them changes for the better.