[BigJ1211]

That would really depend on how you define freedom, if you look at it theoratically like "free to do whatever you want". Then maybe, if you look at it from the perspective of "an individual can garner freedoms through work" they are far more likely to do that in most other western countries.

You are far more likely to not have to worry about things like healthcare in european countries than you are in the US for example. You are far less likely to have to work multiple jobs to sustain your life. 'Class'mobility is far is better in most other western countries as well.

So if your definition is "free to do whatever", this also means other people and corporations are free to screw you over. And you would be right that in that regard the USA is freer than other western countries, but it infringes upon personal freedom, and in my opinion, that is the kind of freedom the USA gneerally says they're all about.

[vinay427]

> That would really depend on how you define freedom, if you look at it theoratically like "free to do whatever you want". Then maybe

That really is all I meant by my comment, and I hoped to make it clear that I don't think this is a worthwhile positive metric. I guess I didn't communicate that well enough because a few other people seemed to follow this line of reasoning as well...

[ekianjo]

Class mobility better in other countries? Please provide a source for this claim.

[bildung]

Vertical social mobility is pretty bad in the US.

This is for 2012: https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobi...

This OECD chart shows how your financial outcome is practically inherited in the US and Germany: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/moving-up-the-income-...

This isn't very surprising. For decades, the strongest predictor for a country having high social mobility is a strong welfare program including child care and health care, financed by progressive taxation of income and wealth.

In the US, the rags to riches story has been a myth for at least 50 years.

[ekianjo]

> For decades, the strongest predictor for a country having high social mobility is a strong welfare program including child care and health care, financed by progressive taxation of income and wealth.

I guess that does not apply at all to developing countries like China.

EDIT: looking at your link:

> An elasticity of zero would mean there is no relationship, and thus complete intergenerational mobility,

No, an elasticity of zero would rather mean that people are overly taxed and therefore there is no transfer of wealth between generations, which is probably not what you want (what is already taxed belongs to you and whoever you decide to give it to).

Of course, elasticity of zero would mean that there is no whatsoever transfer of skills or intelligence between generations, which is genetically patently false.

[bildung]

> I guess that does not apply at all to developing countries like China.

Have you looked at the second link?

> No, an elasticity of zero would rather mean that people are overly taxed and therefore there is no transfer of wealth between generations, which is probably not what you want (what is already taxed belongs to you and whoever you decide to give it to).

Low elasticity means high social mobility. It's the desciption of the same thing, only from the other direction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

If your design goal is high social mobility (e.g. because you want a meritocratic society or simply argued from an ethical position) and high economic growth, you want to limit inheritance as much as possible. This is pretty much what Piketty et. al. have shown a few years ago.

> Of course, elasticity of zero would mean that there is no whatsoever transfer of skills or intelligence between generations, which is genetically patently false.

And yet elasticity is close to zero (0.15) in Denmark while being over three times higher in the US.

The reason is obvious: Genetics predict potential, societal context predicts outcome.

[briandear]

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/economic-mobility-unit...

[briandear]

> The strongest predictor for a county having high social mobility is a strong welfare program..

Citation needed.

> financed by progressive taxation of income and wealth.

Only 4 OECD countries still have a wealth tax. “Taxing wealth” hasn’t worked out very well.

[bildung]

> Citation needed.

I already posted a bunch? Nevertheless, here, straight from the horse's mouth: https://www.oecd.org/social/soc/Social-mobility-2018-Overvie...

Scientifically this is pretty much consensus for decades now BTW.

> Only 4 OECD countries still have a wealth tax.

True, but I meant not only the tax literally called wealth tax, but all taxes targeting wealth. Almost all OECD countries have inheritance taxes, capital gains taxes, real estate transfer taxes and so on.

[FabHK]

It's well established, just google it. For example:

> Compared with many European countries, for example, few Americans end up with an income or educational level that is substantially different than their parents.

> Now, new research suggests that social mobility in America may be even more limited than researchers have realized.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/06/strik...

> US social mobility gap continues to widen

https://www.ft.com/content/7de9165e-c3d2-11e6-9bca-2b93a6856... (Paywall!)

EDIT to add:

> You're twice as likely to live the American Dream in Canada

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-american-dream-of-social...

[mensetmanusman]

https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/pcs_a...

The U.S. is dealing with the after effects of major social ills. Children in intact families are still very likely to have economic mobility.

[refurb]

Sure, if you change the definition of freedom, then the US isn’t that free.

[girvo]

The US doesn’t have a monopoly on defining what is and isn’t free, though, at least in this specific context