[krapp]

>The reality is, proponents of the idea of "toxic masculinity" provide almost no examples of "healthy masculinity" (or "toxic femininity").

Almost any article you read about toxic masculinity and in every discussion where it comes up, proponents take pains to point out, often in laborious detail, and to futile effect, that the term isn't meant to assign toxicity to all masculine behaviors. One shouldn't need to provide a list of "non-toxic" masculine behaviors as well as a list of "toxic feminine" behaviors in order for the concept to be understood as presented.

The people using toxic masculinity in mainstream conversation to mean "all masculinity is toxic" are, primarily, its opponents, not its proponents.

[TheOtherHobbes]

Actually one should provide exactly that, because otherwise the concept can be used to justify bullying.

"I don't like what you're doing" can become "That's toxic male behaviour" - which immediately politicises and amplifies something that may be a trivial personal/domestic disagreement.

As for toxic femininity - it seems it cannot exist. See e.g.

https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Toxic_femininity

...which explicitly states that toxic femininity doesn't exist as a political phenomenon, and where toxic behaviour does happen (hardly ever...) it's the fault of patriarchy.

In this view all toxic gender behaviour is caused by masculinity.

The line between that and "Masculine behaviour is inherently toxic (unless controlled and directed by women)" is a very thin one.

These definitions concentrate on tribal/political stereotyping, not on the behaviours themselves.

The idea that some behaviours are toxic - and it doesn't matter who is doing them - seems to be a conceptual leap too far in these contexts.

[username90]

Pretty people has labeled all masculine traits as toxic, maybe not the same individuals but as a group they have. That is the problem with ill defined concepts, "toxic masculinity" is not a scientific term since people can interpret whatever they want as toxic.

A men's rights advocate could say that chivalry and self sacrifice is toxic masculinity since it puts a lot of unfair pressure on men.

A female feminist could say that locker room talk and objectification of women in games is toxic masculinity since it is hostile to women.

A male feminist could say that boys rough play is toxic masculinity since it hurts or leaves out those who want to do calmer things.

A pacifist could say that action games and contact sports are toxic masculinity since they promote violence.

A body image advocate could argue that huge muscles, strength and body building is toxic masculinity since it hurts the self esteem of overweight or scrawny men.

Divorced fathers could argue that traditional fatherhood as a money provider who aren't allowed to complain is toxic masculinity.

Extroverted people could argue that the male geek culture which avoid social contact toxic masculinity since they ruin the social atmosphere.

Introverted people could argue that male initiative taking for relationships is toxic masculinity since it bothers a lot of people who aren't interested.

Politicians could argue that male intellectual stubbornness and bias for action is toxic masculinity since it leads to shootings and terrorism.

So let me ask you, what part of masculinity can't be labeled toxic? I have seen all of the examples above in the wild. What are the examples of positive masculinity? Everyone has their own version of that as well. For example, many feminists thinks that positive masculinity is men helping women. But it is not healthy for men to be pressured to help women, so that masculine image is not very positive for men. Also I am pretty sure that there you can find people who would label any one of the above as positive masculinity. In other words, the term is meaningless as it is formulated today.

[brigandish]

It would have made for a more persuasive rebuttal if you'd also included an example of non-toxic masculinity, don't you think?

Just one would do.

[tomlock]

Seeking out mental health assistance more proactively, discussing mental health with their friends.

[brigandish]

1. These aren't masculine traits.

2. You appear to be seeking out a personal argument with me, I suggest you desist.

[tomlock]

1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower. I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends.

2. I suggest you abandon your quest to read "toxic masculinity" as some evil conspiracy to vilify masculinity.

[brigandish]

> 1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower.

Behaviour, not identity.

> I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends.

Behaviour, not masculinity. Masculinity is "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men". I wish men would seek help when they're depressed but I'd rather that was a human trait than try and make it masculine through some Orwellian misnomer.

> 2. I suggest you abandon your quest to read "toxic masculinity" as some evil conspiracy to vilify masculinity.

I'm not on a quest, I dislike conspiracy theories, you didn't produce an example of non-toxic masculinity, and I do wish you'd learn how to stop daemonising those who disagree with you.

[tomlock]

If you understood what toxic masculinity is you'd understand it entirely focuses on behaviour, and how those behaviours build male identity.