[Maultasche]

The initial government was pro-American, but the consequence of pushing a country to have democratic elections is that they sometimes elect people that you don't like.

When you want a country to be free and democratic, you can't also tell them who to elect. You have to choose one or the other. The United States has often chosen the latter while pretending to want the former, but at least with Iraq they seem to be mostly hands off (in recent years).

[mful]

> The initial government was pro-American, but the consequence of pushing a country to have democratic elections is that they sometimes elect people that you don't like.

I don't the right prior here is "elections = real democracy", for cases like Iraq. The US has long history of installing "democratic" governments that are not actually democratic, but rather military states who violently suppress the people, but support US interests. The list of countries where this has borne out is long, but if you are interested, an easy place to start would be Cold War era South America (Guatemala and El Salvador being two straightforward examples).

[kamyarg]

Ironically whole thing started with CIA staged double coup(first one did not work apparently) in Iran during 1953(declassified recently). It was so successful that they copy-pasted it to LATAM and elsewhere. [1]

Interesting fact: Kermit Roosevelt Jr. a grandson of U.S. president Theodore Roosevelt, played the lead role in the CIA-sponsored overthrow of Mohammad Mossadegh, the democratically elected leader of Iran, in August 1953. [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Roosevelt_Jr.

[narrator]

After World War I the British redrew the map of the middle east pretty arbitrarily after defeating the Ottoman Turks founding modern Iraq. It wasn't really guaranteed in the first place to include people who like each other.

[bsder]

It was far from arbitrary.

The British drew the map specifically so that they could use the local tensions to divide and conquer.

We're still suffering because of that.

[didibus]

I'm totally in agreement with you, and yet I'm still saddened that people fall prey to this trick which they have in their power to fix, by learning to forgive and live together in harmony and piece. The tragedy is how hard it is for people to come together and collaborate in good faith. And when that truth is exploited it's even more sad.

[steve19]

According to Wikipedia the Muslim population of the country is split 64–69% Shia and 29-34% Sunni.

The Sunni minority once ruled but now the Shia majority rule and the government is said to be aligned with Shia-majority Iran.

[baddox]

> The United States has often chosen the latter

Seems like it's usually a government that's popular with its people that gets overthrown and replaced by a "democratic" government.

[blackflame7000]

The incumbent government is usually popular because it's a totalitarian regime where the people aren't given a choice.

[jakelazaroff]

The opposite is often true. For instance, in Guatemala and Chile the US helped overthrow democratic governments and installed totalitarian regimes.

[narrator]

To be fair, they weren't totalitarian. That's absurdly overstating things. North Korea or Khmer Rouge Cambodia were totalitarian governments.

[scarmig]

The Khmer Rouge is an interesting example, as it was a left-wing totalitarian government that the USA supported[0], albeit often at arms length. It was part of the geopolitics at the time, as the USA was aligned with the PRC and the Khmer Rouge against the Soviet bloc. A lot of it was also a petty vendetta against Vietnam, as arming the Khmer Rouge was a way to get back at Vietnamese Communists for winning the Vietnam War.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_s...

[jakelazaroff]

From the Wikipedia article on the Pinochet regime [1]:

> The regime was characterized by the systematic suppression of political parties and the persecution of dissidents to an extent unprecedented in the history of Chile. Overall, the regime left over 3,000 dead or missing, tortured tens of thousands of prisoners, and drove an estimated 200,000 Chileans into exile.

From the Wikipedia article on Carlos Castillo Armas [2]:

> Upon taking power Castillo Armas, worried that he lacked popular support, attempted to eliminate all opposition. He quickly arrested many thousands of opposition leaders, branding them communists. Detention camps were built to hold the prisoners when the jails exceeded their capacity. Historians have estimated that more than 3,000 people were arrested following the coup, and that approximately 1,000 agricultural workers were killed by Castillo Armas's troops in the province of Tiquisate. Acting on the advice of Dulles, Castillo Armas also detained a number of citizens trying to flee the country. He also created a National Committee of Defense Against Communism (CDNCC), with sweeping powers of arrest, detention, and deportation. Over the next few years, the committee investigated nearly 70,000 people. Many were imprisoned, executed, or "disappeared", frequently without trial.

Those don't sound totalitarian to you?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship_of_Chile...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castillo_Armas

[narrator]

That's not totalitarianism though. Since we're quoting Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

"Totalitarian regimes are different from other authoritarian ones. The latter denotes a state in which the single power holder – an individual "dictator", a committee or a junta or an otherwise small group of political elite – monopolizes political power. "[The] authoritarian state [...] is only concerned with political power and as long as that is not contested it gives society a certain degree of liberty".[8] Authoritarianism "does not attempt to change the world and human nature".[8] In contrast, a totalitarian regime attempts to control virtually all aspects of the social life, including the economy, education, art, science, private life and morals of citizens."

So Chile and Guatemala were Authoritarian, but not Totalitarian. The practical difference is that an Authoritarian Chilean government kills 3,000 people while the Totalitarian Khmer Rouge kills 1.5 to 2 million of its own people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

"According to a 2001 academic source, the most widely-accepted estimates of excess deaths under the Khmer Rouge range from 1.5 million to 2 million,"

In North Korea, it's hard to estimate because it's a closed society with tight control over information:

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP10.HTM

"Perhaps from 710,000 to slightly over 3,500,000 people have been murdered, with a mid-estimate of almost 1,600,000. But these figures are little more than educated guesses"

Saying they are the same thing is ridiculous and really soft pedals how insane some communist regimes were.

[trust-first]

There is no defense of the Pinochet era. I believe that his predecessor tragically abused governance though, seizing control over so many lives, there and abroad.

I feel this is such important context for what followed. It raised such a fervor of hatred toward the communist political body. I still believe this was theft of property from people's families and estates built over many generations of effort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuskovic_plan#Application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Salvador_Allende...

The bounds of civility had been trampled and vanished. The violent retaliations which followed were outright disgusting.

[8note]

I'm interested in some examples.

the ones that come readily to my mind like Iran and Chile don't quite fit that mold.

[Cyph0n]

But Maliki was America’s choice while also being clearly pro-Shia. Or are you talking about the transitional government?

[throwaway66920]

But the people are now protesting the Iranian favoring government?

[astronautjones]

useful quick watch:

https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2019/10/ira...

[C14L]

> When you want a country to be free and democratic, you can't also tell them who to elect.

Wasn't that what happened in Egypt?

[mlindner]

The hands off approach to Iraq is exactly how we got ISIS btw...

[lawnchair_larry]

No it isn’t. The US invasion that threw out out Saddam’s government is how we got ISIS.