[retr0grad3]

I'm an organizer for one of the (many) DevOpsDays Conferences held around the world. Speaking only for myself, I struggle with making sure that DevOps is about Dev and Ops working together, not just Ops / SysAdmins using a different, more marketable job title. When Operations Engineers become DevOps Engineers, it subconsciously says to Developers that they don't belong.

I'd encourage all of you that feel excluded, or feel like these are just SysAdmin conferences in sheeps clothing, to go to your local DevOps Meetup and start there. Demand that DevOps continues to stand for a community and cultural way of making software development suck less and not just "the next Agile". /rant over

[sudosteph]

> When Operations Engineers become DevOps Engineers, it subconsciously says to Developers that they don't belong..

I think anyone who actually feels that way about their peers getting a title-change is being incredibly over-sensitive.

The fact is that for many years, some "System Administrator" types did already think like "developers" and use similar tooling. Those folks just didn't get recognized or paid for that, because the role was defined by what you did (keep things operational), instead of how of you did it. So when "DevOps" became a thing, it was actually not a huge leap for many Operations types. So it's reasonable that many of them found positions with the "DevOps" title appealing due to the increased pay and prestige, and the fact that they already had the skills to do it.

Conversely - many developers don't actually have much experience running production systems, and it can feel demeaning to hear those people say that Operations-types do DevOps "wrong" because operations people don't want to use the latest bleeding-edge tool or the most efficient programming language. A preference for stability and maturity is something learned from experience, and stability happens to be very valuable when it comes to production situations.

All that said, I still love hearing from dev-types who share their experiences around DevOps. Both sides should continue learning, hearing each other out, and valuing each other's contributions without assuming ill-intent or inferiority due to their educations background or previous titles.

[Conan_Kudo]

> The fact is that for many years, some "System Administrator" types did already think like "developers" and use similar tooling.

The funny thing is that it was the opposite for me. I became a DevOps Engineer because a lot of my work was being self-supported with my own infrastructure. I found that I had a knack for finding and putting together good systems to support my work. In many ways, I guess I was considered the quintessential DevOps person. In my QA role, I wound up being a developer who needed to put together infrastructure to support the needs of the QA group and to a lesser extent software engineers.

When this was recognized, I was moved into the sysadmin group as a founding member of a new team. That team grew and split out into its own group that specifically interfaced with both software engineers and infrastructure engineers. My team is not perfect, but it's been the best I could ask for. We've done amazing work transforming our engineering processes over the years, and software engineers are now more often part of the infrastructure bringup process than not. We've still got a ways to go, but we're getting there.