[weberc2]

A willingness to learn new tech is essential but not sufficient. Mostly it seems folks with a more traditional sysadmin background are looking to be Kubernetes sysadmins or AWS sysadmins, but we’re not looking for sysadmins, we’re looking for engineers. Learning the new tech isn’t sufficient—it’s not even about the tech—you need to be able to _do engineering_.

[eropple]

This is a critical point, and it's one the post to which you replied seems to miss.

"System administrators" in the traditional sense--and I have hired many of them and consulted on the obsolescence of others--often and generally exhibit that strong get-it-working,-damn-the-consequences tendency that is in opposition to--well, none of us in this industry are engineers, but some of us aspire to engineering. Rigorous, systemic, and repeatable are the watchwords, and to that end those system administrators aren't being "screwed over"--there's a different skillset being prioritized.

[HNUser34159]

I think that is a gross mis-characterization because I see a ton of "get it done now, make it right later" bullshit among DevOps-y start ups.

Again, I think there's a large talent pool available, but startups who think they'll be the next FAANG act too big for their britches and actively discriminate against older tech workers who are likely experts in several pieces of the tech stack.

I routinely see these folks get passed over for younger, less experienced candidates (often for 1/2 to 3/4 the salary) who look good on paper because they wax eloquent about their pet project on GitHub, facial hair wax and kombucha.

Source: I make damn good money as a "fixer", and my primary customers are 5-30 person startups. I don't "code", and never will (useful scripts, and some automation/cloud API excepted).

I go in and practically beat the managers over the heads with the DevOps Handbook, and "engineers" with the NASA Systems Engineering Handbook. Most of my work is tearing out fucked k8s installs, and cutting AWS spending by 1/2 or more. (A few clients were billed based on how much I reduced their bill).

Have a standing job offer with one client, however it requires Azure certification pretty much immediately. Between not really using much MS stuff, and the exam focusing mostly on the Azure CLI, it might not be worth the trouble for a steady paycheck. They were nice enough to cover a training course though, so I'm willing to see where it goes.

[eropple]

Sure, there are stupid startups that think they do "devops". What of it?

It's great that you can make that money in the role you describe. Before I decided I wanted to stop doing sales work alongside dev work, I used to make very good money as a similar fixer. On the other hand, I do code. I'm very good at it. And I've learned that fixing the situations of companies whose operators don't code is to fix, or replace, those operators. Especially those expensive operators who you're holding up over folks who understand systems as code and as managed resources.

Sneering at kombucha and facial hair wax, though? Aren't you saying you're the adult in the room here? Frankly, you sound bitter. And that sucks. As somebody who has spent his entire career doing both dev and ops and getting to the point where melding them together is natural and the teaching thereof is likewise a basic part of work, I've had to recommend the replacement of people who act like you're acting in this thread. 'Cause I'm happy to teach, and I've never met a hands-first sysadmin who couldn't do what should be done. But I've met a lot who won't, and if they don't retire first it eventually catches up to them.

[HNUser34159]

So you are part of the problem then. You've globbed onto a bastardized concept of "DevOps", and refuse to allow other people into your walled garden.

[weberc2]

There is no authoritative definition of DevOps, so there’s really no point in arguing that one of our definitions is wrong. I’m telling you that it is more valuable to treat ops as an engineering problem rather than “duct-tape it and keep it chugging along”. So yes, if you want to treat it as an engineering problem, you must _employ engineers_. These engineers can be former sysadmins so long as they know how (or can be trained in a reasonable timeframe) to do engineering.

WRT your “walled garden” quip, employment is about qualifications. No one is entitled to jobs for which they are not qualified, not even sysadmins. If the employer is hiring engineers and the sysadmin candidate can’t or won’t learn how to engineer, then they are not qualified.