[xnyan]

Maybe I'm dumb - Can anyone tell me why PHP vs JS for a "generic" web application?

\In 2019 there are far far far more developers with real experience developing in Javascript vs PHP. There are obviously a lot of other factors in considering the base dev language, but unless you can make a strong case for PHP vs JS, I'm picking JS every time because in the generic case they both meet my needs but a lot more devs work with JS vs PHP. This is not a moral argument, but rather a practical one. What is the practical argument for PHP?

[kortilla]

There are far fewer devs with server-side JavaScript experience. When it comes to server-side for small startups, the syntax is irrelevant compared to the maturity of the ecosystem. Look how much of the web is still Wordpress.

[TheKarateKid]

PHP an older and more mature language. It also is synchronous so it runs similar to C/Java/Python.

Programming full stack with JavaScript requires a different programming mindset with its asynchronous nature.

[wavefunction]

JavaScript predates PHP by five years. 'Maturity' is a subjective quality in my opinion and I also think PHP is a hot mess. JavaScript is synchronous unless you specifically utilize its asynchronous parts. Asynchronous execution is possible with PHP

[hdfbdtbcdg]

> think PHP is a hot mess.

Have you used PHP in the last 5 years?

[tekkk]

I'm not trying to pick a side here, and I'm sure modern PHP is fantastic with Laravel and all that. But it seems to me that the PHP-advocates are failing to understand that impressions matter a lot to developers. I wouldn't touch PHP with a ten-foot pole if I can. Not because modern PHP is terrible but that the baggage of terrible PHP is still strong in my memory, and I'm not willing the re-evaluate PHP as my choice for backend because of that. Period. That ship has sailed.

Sure TS with something like Express has its disadvantages but I'm ok with it. It's the tool I use for a specific job and there's a lot more useful things to learn than another language & framework just for its sake.

[chrisan]

You might be browsing the internet in an echo chamber. Javascript gets almost as much flak as PHP for the same gobs of terrible Javascript in peoples memories.

Both are old languages and both had years of low quality devs cranking out terrible stuff.

[hdfbdtbcdg]

I guess I'm coming from the perspective of having worked on terrible JS (serverside) code bases and then moved to modern PHP... I'm not calling JS a hot mess though. I'm sure there are great JS projects out there. It is really nice to use a framework again though rather than a loose collection of libraries..

> there's a lot more useful things to learn than another language & framework just for its sake.

Agreed.

[eitland]

> But it seems to me that the PHP-advocates are failing to understand that impressions matter a lot to developers.

Not a PHP advocate.

But I do recommend people think carefully before they commit to either Javascript or PHP.

Both are about equally good/bad in my opinion (I have written significant Javascript as far back as in 2005 and PHP later.)

Both are useful and both have very very effective footguns built in (unlike Java, my personal favorite, who's footguns are less effectivebut who's more famous for its built in ball and chain).

A significant advantage of PHP is it looks ugly and people already know they should be careful around it so they aren't so easily tempted to start using it for everything under the sun like they are with Javascript ;-)

[wavefunction]

I wrote some PHP on Friday.

[hdfbdtbcdg]

Interesting. Which version? Did you use an IDE (and an editor with good PHP bindings)? Was it a legacy project? Does the project use composer? What didn't you like?

[TheKarateKid]

> I also think PHP is a hot mess.

More of a hot mess of a language than Javascript where every engine can apply their own rules and implementations, just like HTML?

Just because almost everyone uses V8, it doesn't change the fact that when you execute Javascript code, it's not guaranteed to run a certain way because each engine is based on recommendations and standards - not cemented rules. It's the same problem as having to write HTML/CSS for each browser engine.

[senorjazz]

> and I also think PHP is a hot mess

That is a mighty strong statement when trying to big javascript lol

[wavefunction]

I just pointed out some misconceptions about both JavaScript and PHP but some folks are indeed touchy, I will agree with you there.

[cesarb]

> JavaScript predates PHP by five years.

Wikipedia tells me they're both from 1995.

[wavefunction]

This is all IMNSOHO: PHP3 was really the genesis of "PHP" which was 1997 with a decent parser, and I think the first version of what people refer to as "PHP" was PHP4 in 1999 with mainstream adoption in 2000. Many places were still doing VB6 with MS Access data stores.

[TheKarateKid]

So by the logic of your own opinion, Javascript would be seen as even less of a mature language than PHP because the "genesis" of JS was really the V8 engine and Node, which didn't happen until 2008-2009.

[wolco]

The pool of js developers available include php developers.

Specifically node developers cost more and are far fewer in numbers.

[cma]

A PHP stack can maybe help you get acquired by Facebook, like a COBOL stack could ease an acquisition by an old insurance company.