[GreenJelloShot]

Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest door, someone with a hammer can easily break a window.

If someone is determined and willing, there really is nothing you can do to stop them from breaking into your house.

[JohnFen]

> Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest?

No. Honest people don't need to be "kept honest".

Locks have the same purpose as other security systems (including electronic ones like crypto, etc.).

They aren't intended to (and can't) keep a determined attacker out. What they do is increase the cost (in terms of time, effort, risk, etc.) of gaining access. The point is -- as far as possible -- to make the cost of gaining access exceed the benefit that would be gained by that access.

[beobab]

Honest people do need to be kept honest. Even the most saintly can be tempted.

If you found a twenty on the floor in an abandoned alleyway, would you hand it in to police, or would you steal that money?

If your first thought was "It's not stealing for such a small amount", or "It's clearly been abandoned, so it's ok to take it", then you're the target audience for being kept honest.

Your other point is spot on: the aim is to increase the friction of entry and raise a mental barrier in the mind of the subject which results in an outcome you would prefer (no break-in).

[eMSF]

>If your first thought was "It's not stealing for such a small amount"

Well, actually... where I live, it would not be stealing for such a small amount, given that you don't know who lost it, and it was found in an abandoned alleyway (and not say, an office, store or station etc. where it could be handed over to local personnel). Had you said fifty, the situation would've been different.</nitpick>

[beobab]

Agreed. The amount is right on the edge of legality. Should you report it? Should you make an effort to find someone to hand it to? If the first shopkeeper around the corner says "Could be anyone's. Keep it" for a fifty, does that constitute a reasonable search for the owner?

[nitwit005]

Essentially everyone has stolen at some point in their lives, and almost everyone has gone into private property they theoretically shouldn't have gone into.

My door has a lock, but must adults could get in by kicking it a few times with determination. That's true of most locks in existence. They're there to stop people who don't actually want to cause any real damage.

[spinach]

> Essentially everyone has stolen at some point in their lives

Isn't this a fairly wild claim? I've never stolen anything and can't imagine doing so. That's a pretty dismal view of the human race isn't it.

[culturestate]

I don’t think they’re suggesting that everyone on earth has purposefully become a thief at one point, but that sometimes it just happens.

I’ve definitely walked out of a supermarket with a bottle of water that I picked up while shopping and forgot to pay for - I still stole it, even if unintentionally.

[journalctl]

How often do you unintentionally walk into someone’s unlocked house and steal something, though?

[tlb]

In the Canadian North, it's traditional to leave your summer cabin unlocked over the winter so that if someone is lost in the woods they can come in and warm up. It wasn't unusual to come back find that someone had used it over the winter.

[input_sh]

I've unintentionally stolen dozens of lighters from the houses I've visited while I was a smoker.

[kelnos]

That's... not what the parent upthread said, though.

[csomar]

> I’ve definitely walked out of a supermarket with a bottle of water that I picked up while shopping and forgot to pay for - I still stole it, even if unintentionally.

You only steal it if you realize it and don't return back to pay. Happened with me a few times, the cashiers will really appreciate it.

[freeflight]

Does that also apply when the cashier gives you too much/not enough return cash?

A while ago my to-go order from McD somehow included an extra cheeseburger.

Was that maybe a "present" by the company to a loyal customer? Should I have gone back and paid for a cheeseburger I never ordered? But if I give it back to them, they would just throw it in the trash anyway because they can't sell it to another customer.

[_carl_jung]

I did this with an entire rucksack full of groceries once when I was tired and used the self-checkout. When I came back the cashiers expressed surprise that I even did!

[nitwit005]

You complained about the theft claim, but not the trespassing claim, so it seems I still need that lock to keep you from wandering in.

You probably have stolen something, even if it's just a failure to return a book you borrowed from someone, or office supplies that wandered off with you (pens vanish like you wouldn't belive).

[userbinator]

Digitally, I'd say yes (depending on your viewpoints of IP.) Physically, no.

[benj111]

Ikea pencils?

[asjw]

Stealing a pen at the supermarket or entering the neighborhood's garden qualify as being a kid doing stupid stuff

Breaking into someone else's house with the intent of stealing it's something completely different

[swiley]

Maybe if you live in Baltimore or Detroit but in most of the US people really need a good reason to do that kind of thing.

In college I had a friend who didn't even bother locking his door and always left his keys in his car and it was never a problem.

[tanr54ok]

The second half of your post is survivor bias.

The first part of your post is pure hyperbole. There are plenty of places less crime ridden then Baltimore or Detroit where you absolutely have to lock your things or they are likely to get stolen. Pretty much any urban area in the US. Most suburbs as well if you park on the street. Kids will go down and just try doors. They have no intent of picking anything or forcible entry, just snatching the low hanging fruit.

I have lived in northwestern Nebraska so I get it, there are places where you don’t have to ever lock your door.. that is the exception.

To counter your friend: I lived in one of the lowest crime rate suburbs in the US. Stupidly left my door unlocked in an apartment parking lot overnight.. everything of value was cleaned out in the morning.

[walrus01]

This is not even a US specific issue. Vancouver, BC has a serious problem with (heroin, meth, cocaine) addicts and property crime. Theft from vehicles and from vehicles in supposedly "secure" underground parking garages is epidemic. No bicycle worth more than 50 dollars is safe locked in public, no matter what kind of lock it has on it.

[lb1lf]

-Anecdotal, but indicates there's a certain honour among thieves - if you volunteer to visit inmates in Norwegian prisons, you get a parking pass to keep prison staff from having your car towed or bike removed while you're visiting.

An inmate advised me that I should just leave that pass on the windshield at all times - as it would be more effective against theft than any immobiliser.

I did leave it in place, and a few months later, just about every car parked curbside down my street had had its stereo and valuables snatched - except mine.

Now, obviously, this may have been a result of my stereo being pretty basic, though of recent manufacture from a renowned brand - but I like to think it was because of the visitor's service pass.

[grapehut]

Vancouver is probably even worse. Not only is crime rampant, out of misguided compassion for drug users they have for all intents and purposes decriminalized petty crime in a sizable section (DTES) of the city. Police will quite literally not even arrest repeat "frequent flyers" even when seen seen prying into buildings and security gates.

[beatgammit]

I live in a very low crime area, yet even in my sleepy neighborhood (semi rural), we had a break-in a couple years before buying our house. It turned out to be a couple of teenagers that wanted some quick cash (probably for drugs). That was the only break-in for years, and there hasn't been one for the several years I've lived in my house, so you never know when someone will try to steal something.

That being said, a lock has to be just good enough to deter theft. In my area, that's means a simple door lock for houses and a U-lock for bicycles. In other areas, you need far more security. But to goal isn't to keep out a determined attacker, but to make it more worthwhile for the thief to move on to the next house/car/bike than to try to get past your lock.

[benj111]

It still isnt clear to me that at this level that locking your door is a win.

If they break in you still have to pay to repair the damage and the things they've taken.

I'm fairly certain, if someone broke into my house, the biggest bill would be repairs, not replacements.

[swish_bob]

Your household insurance might well refuse to pay out if there isn't evidence of forced entry. That's a fairly sizeable variation in the cost of being broken into ...

[benj111]

Maybe, I probably wouldn't try to claim on the insurance though. My most expensive to replace thing is probably my cd collection, which as far as I'm aware thieves don't go for, my tv is small cheap and unbranded, my laptop is ancient and the battery is knackered. I suspect the most fence-able possession I've got is a Kitchenaid mixer.

The only reason I even have contents insurance is because it comes with the buildings insurance.

[ineedasername]

Pretty much every suburban area has a decent amount of home burglary. Sure, rural areas not so much. But take a look at the the stats at the bottom of this page and you'll see lots more than Baltimore and Detroit: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-most-burglaries-in-t...

[justin66]

> Pretty much every suburban area has a decent amount of home burglary. Sure, rural areas not so much.

But more than you'd think. Criminals are aware that they can often be in a different state before the police arrive at a rural crime scene, reducing the chance of getting caught.

[fyfy18]

Take a look at some of the European armoured doors, especially those in Italy. The door and frame come as a single piece, where the frame is made from hardened steel. I assume the door is too, but they are covered in some sort of veneer.

There is a basic cylinder lock which needs a 90 degree turn from the key outside, or the knob inside. Then there is the deadbolt mechanism which needs to be turned five or so times, and drives 1/2" steel bolts deep into the frame.

http://is.alicdn.com/img/pb/172/617/299/299617172_794.jpg

(Something like "normal", but this is a cheap Chinese knock off)

A few years ago a neighbour called the police because their son had locked himself in the apartment and they thought he was a suicide risk. They brought in the fire department to break in, but rather than cutting through the door, it was easier for them to cut through the masonry wall. Windows here are typically just as secure with triple glazing and multi-point locking as standard, and this was the third floor.

[2rsf]

> cut through the masonry wall

some emergency services uses an hydraulic device [1] to open steel doors

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjluIosPWiA

[Aozi]

>If someone is determined and willing, there really is nothing you can do to stop them from breaking into your house.

Yes and no. If someone desperately wants to rob you, and precisely you, then yeah they will most likely be able to break in. However that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them. The longer it takes to bypass my lock and security, the more noise they make, the more destruction they leave behind the more likely it is that someone will notice them and call the cops. The more likely it is that they leave something behind that can be used to trace them, etc.

The bigger reason to get quality locks is that criminals often target places with weak security, because hitting those location is easy. A burglar for example will usually case out a location they're targeting to figure out what they need to bring for the actual burglarly. Now if I have SuperArmorMax extra secure lock that takes the burglar an hour to bypass with power tools, but my neighbor has an aluminum smartlock that can be bypassed in 5 seconds with a regular drill, which do you think the burglar will target?

Sure they could also break windows, or try other more destructive entry methods, but those are much louder and rouse more suspoicions from other people. You want to be quick and minimize the time you spend doing something shady.

And again, you shouldn't make things easy just because a determined attacker can get through it, at least make them work for it.

[floatingatoll]

A primary point of a lock is to keep people from acting impulsively. Consider these scenarios, ordered by decreasing likelihood of "yes, you would peek your head in" — or "yes, you would slip in and steal something":

If your neighbor leaves their door open, do you peek your head in out of curiosity?

If your neighbor leaves their door unlocked, do you open the door and peek your head in out of curiosity?

If your neighbor locks their door with a combination of 1234, do you open the combination lock, open the door, and peek your head in out of curiosity?

If your neighbor locks their door with a radio-frequency lock, do you install an app to capture their lock signal and replay it later, open the door, and peek your head in out of curiosity?

None of these protect against a determined attacker, but they absolutely do protect against impulsive "low risk, high opportunity" actions.

[dual_basis]

If the door is open and that is an unusual occurance, sure, I would knock on the door frame and call out to make sure they are alright / didn't forget to close the door, etc. For every other situation, no, I wouldn't.

[floatingatoll]

Yes, thankfully, closed doors are enough for most people to curb their curiosity :)

[dual_basis]

I'm just not all that curious, to be honest. It doesn't need to be curbed, I don't care what you have in your house. Is this really a motivation that other people feel?

[floatingatoll]

Yes. Not as many, but a few!

[Iv]

You can always break in somewhere given time and tools. But like the old saying goes, you don't need to overrun the tiger, you need to overrun the other guy.

If a robber has to choose between a locked door and an unlocked door, they will chose the unlocked one. I used to live in an apartment with a door that was so bad that the previous tenant had to add a second lock just to keep it closed, but one day a burglar came and robbed my neighbor. Discussing about why they chose his rather than mine he noticed "from the outside, it looks like you have hardened your door with a second lock".

And yes, you can break windows (if you have easily accessible windows) but a broken window is a much clearer sign of something going wrong than an opened door.

[fuzz4lyfe]

>Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest door, someone with a hammer can easily break a window.

In my home, the locks and windows (laminated glass[0]) are hard enough to break that when you attempt to do so I have time to ready my firearm. Something like this would potentially allow someone to sneak up more quickly and perhaps undetected. When my family isn't home I don't really care if you break into my house, insurance will cover the loss.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HxWn6eP74

[RHSeeger]

Out of curiosity, do you have a normal door lock on your door; one that uses the kind of key you can get a copy made of at home depot? If so, pretty much anyone can open it with a bump key and a couple seconds.

You can see it in action here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CIlwSxsvU). His first try takes a bit longer than it should because he's turning too hard (simple mistake). Every attempt after that takes just a couple seconds.

[fuzz4lyfe]

I've got abloy protec 2's on all exterior doors in addition to door chains I use at night.

https://securitysnobs.com/Abloy-Protec2-Single-Cylinder-w-Lo...

[RHSeeger]

Thanks for the link. That's a nice looking lock. Clearly removes the possibility of all the well known lock issues.

[vonmoltke]

> If so, pretty much anyone can open it with a bump key and a couple seconds.

This guy claims that he was unable to bump Kwikset locks: https://www.frontrangelocksmith.com/blog/the-best-lock-for-y...

[sliken]

My pet peeve is smart dead bolts. Presumably if you have a dead bolt you are worried enough about security to pay for a lock that's stronger and harder to subvert than a normal door knob lock. After all using 2 keys/locks is a hassle every time you open the door. Presumably because you don't want anyone with a shim/credit card to just pop your latch.

Most would expect a dead bolt to survive a 5 second attack from a 10 year old without specialized tools.

It's sadly common to see a $150 "smart" dead bolt with dramatically less physical security than a $25 dumb dead bolt. Some have plastic cases, easily popped off. Others have plastic gears, easily over torqued. If a kid with a screwdriver can just insert the screwdriver into the keyhole and rotate and open the door you might as well not have a dead bolt.

[war1025]

I (and I assumed everyone with a dead bolt) only ever lock the dead bolt.

What's the point of locking the door handle if there is a dead bolt?

[ridaj]

When someone is trying to break into a house, they might have to do it fast, so that they don't get noticed. If they need to pick two locks instead of one, it's costing them twice the time, so by locking the handle in addition to the deadbolt, you're increasing your security by making your door a bit more of a pain for someone to break into.

[tanr54ok]

Who picks a lock to break in? Common thieves have no need to pick locks.. totally dumb for a couple reasons.

Contrary to popular nerd belief... door locks in the US are not that easy to pick. Many have anti pick features like reverse sidebars that while not impenetrable increase time or skill required. While the lockpickinglawyer has videos, note that he is extremely skilled with tons of practice, it still can take more time than breaking, and those aren’t field conditions. Just break the door in... stealing might as well use forcible entry.

Where picking is useful is covert spying, and if that is your threat model the addition of the second or third lock doesn’t really mean much.

[ridaj]

I don't know about these videos but when I called my neighborhood locksmith to deal with a lock I'd misplaced the key to, it took about 20s to pick... It would seem to make sense to me if you were trying not to call attention

[journalctl]

I mean, it’s there; you might as well.

[sroussey]

Deadbolt only guy here too.

[Cthulhu_]

Yup; I think an important aspect to look out for with locks is whether or not you have to damage / destroy them to get in, because if they do then you have evidence of a break-in meaning the insurance company will pay out. If you have a burglary (for example) done by shims or lockpicks they can claim fraud / no evidence of a break-in and not pay out.

I'd even go as far to say that for burglars it's important to leave traces of a break-in so that the victim can claim insurance.

[doormannn]

There are doors... and there are doors

https://youtu.be/ET9SNXpeORY

[peterwwillis]

Of the places I've lived, the back window has been kicked in, the rooftop door has been unlocked, windows pried, and previous roommates broke into others' rooms to steal stuff.

[jmnicolas]

After a break-in I had the most disheartening conversation with the Police :

- put an alarm : they're either too fast to care or they deactivate it

- get a dog : they poison it

- bullet proof door + security lock : they break the wall

etc

[tinus_hn]

No, because then we would all be using wafer locks on our front doors. There’s a balance between strength and price here.

[matz1]

it keep those who are in between. Some people would steal if it easy but not if it hard.