[ben_jones]

I agree but can't ignore this idiom

> If you start without an ORM you end up writing a custom ORM eventually and often that custom ORM is inferior to the third party one you're considering

Funny enough this engineering problem becomes an HR one:

If your recruiting and training processes can consistently hire devs actually fluent in SQL and web application architecture you can completely avoid the ORM and just write good modular and testable code that avoids the chaos of poor SQL performance etc.

If you're like most organizations and have trash recruiting and training processes for developers, you don't have the luxury of trusting your teams not to fall over with technical debt, and may prefer to use an ORM for immediate short term complexity and also long term technical debt management (since the ORM effectively becomes a framework with consistent patterns that can scale across teams).

[gav]

I think this is a really great point, as often the HN answer is "hire better developers". The majority of companies outside the HN bubble are full of very average developers. ORMs work well in that sort of environment as it allows them to be productive, and any performance issues can be tackled by the less-average developers on the team.

A while back, I worked with a client who's stack was predominately Java but due to company policies paid 25-50% under the going rate for decent developers. This caused two problems: not being able to hire enough developers, and some of the hires not being great.

We solved that problem with a technical one: the stack moved to Clojure powering backend services with Node.js on the front end. The coolness and newness of those technologies at the time meant they could make hires. Ironically, now the demand for those technologies means they command high salaries and they're back at square one.

Bit of a long story, but my point is that sometime you need to solve people problems with technology and technology with people.

[jmnicolas]

> The majority of companies outside the HN bubble are full of very average developers.

I think you underestimate the HN bubble : I'm an average dev (I don't even have a Github account !) yet I'm in the HN bubble.

[wolco]

Remove ORMs and write raw queries for everything? Or write our own orm/query builder?

I didn't like orms much at first but with some practice you can shape your queries. Much neater and cleaner if that matters in your case.