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by toddheasley 5627 days ago
I've been trying to refrain from commenting, too, so that's one thing that we have... had in common.

> ...of course WebM exclusivity is the right way to go. Mozilla supports it, Chrome supports it, Opera supports it, Flash will be supporting it in the near future...

First of all, including Opera in the list of those in favor of WebM is a lot like including Iceland in the Coalition of the Willing. If you live in Iceland, you probably overestimate Iceland's importance, but it undermines the intent of making a list in the first place. The flip side of this is that, while Internet Explorer probably won't support WebM unless Google indemnifies adopters, IE is almost as irrelevant as Opera in the arenas of both web video and The Future. Here's where we really are:

* Apple likes H.264 for the following reasons: * The licensing and liability is known, and Apple can afford to pay. They don't care if web video ends up being a high stakes poker table, because they're a high roller. * H.264-encoded video looks better than WebM video and takes up slightly less space. * Most current graphics silicon supports hardware decoding of H.264, which allows for video playback that is both gorgeous and economical. * Mozilla liked Theora because they can't or won't pay to license H.264, and Theora was the only open source candidate they could find to run in the election. Free is more important than good. * Google likes WebM for the following reasons: * They can control its development. * It is, so far as anyone knows, unencumbered by patents, so no licensing.

I say "so far as anyone knows" because that's what Google is saying by not indemnifying WebM adopters. If you're worried about a theoretical MPEG-LA licensing gotcha, then you have to be equally worried that, if/when WebM adoption is significant, patent trolls won't show up with claims of infringement. At least with H.264, the licensing terms have been stated. YOU personally may not be worried about either scenario, but you're probably not weighing whether you should produce graphics chips that decode WebM. Does anybody on this forum want to argue whether the chipmakers who've pledged to do WebM decoding aren't nervously watching to see if more Android hardware makers get sued? By not indemnifying adopters, Google is essentially picking an open source fight in a crowded bar and then ducking out the side door.

>The only reason people are complaining is that their iPhones have H.264 hardware acceleration. Well, dude, you'll just have to deal with software decode for some videos. The world does not revolve around iOS, no matter how much you want it to.

That is a very big component to the complaining: I can't watch your idealism on my iPad for the duration of a 6-hour flight. And you're right, the world does not revolve around iOS, but the video world does revolve around H.264 right now. If you're not shooting with actual film, then your video workflow literally starts and ends with H.264.

And maybe more to the point web video does revolve around iOS devices, because iOS users watch orders of magnitude more video than anybody else.

> WebM provides roughly equivalent features and quality

If by "features" you're excluding fast, economical encoding and decoding and by "quality" you're excluding picture quality. "Roughly equivalent" is just weaseling around admitting H.264 looks and works better. Someday... who knows? Someday GM might make a better car than Toyota, but for now, GM is stuck saying things like "[our] quality can't be beat by Toyota."

> I find the pointless hipster-fanboy whining to be pretty grating, personally.

And the hipster-fanboys doing the pointless whining harbor deep suspicions that people who are willing to trade their audio and video playback quality today for the open source promise of adequate video someday don't really care much about audio or video.

2 comments

> I say "so far as anyone knows" because that's what Google is saying by not indemnifying WebM adopters. If you're worried about a theoretical MPEG-LA licensing gotcha, then you have to be equally worried that, if/when WebM adoption is significant, patent trolls won't show up with claims of infringement.

Does MPEG-LA indemnify its customers against patents by others (such as Google)?

Google and MPEG-LA both have a bunch of patents that apply to somewhat similar codecs. The only difference is that everyone knows Google's not going to be a jerk about it. Who knows, other patent trolls might turn up that attack MPEG-LA customers.

> By not indemnifying adopters, Google is essentially picking an open source fight in a crowded bar and then ducking out the side door.

Google's not "ducking out" of anywhere: it will be probably the biggest WebM publisher out there because of YouTube. Of any WebM publisher, they'll have the biggest target on their back. And by pushing WebM so hard, clearly Google thinks this is a battle they can win.

You're right that MPEG-LA does not indemnify licensees of H.264, no. Licensing doesn't eliminate the risk of adoption. It substantially reduces that risk. (Largely because patent licensing also function as a protection racket.) MPEG-LA will defend their patents, though.

See, it's not gonna be the content producers (like Google) that the patent trolls go after for WebM; it's gonna be the makers of the WebM-decoding graphics chips. I guess it remains to be seen where Google will be in that fight.

The flip side of this is that, while Internet Explorer probably won't support WebM unless Google indemnifies adopters, IE is almost as irrelevant as Opera in the arenas of both web video and The Future.

Internet Explorer still has a larger market share than Safari and iOS devices are barely a blip on the radar. By your logic, only Firefox, IE and Chrome should matter.

I can't watch your idealism on my iPad for the duration of a 6-hour flight

Well, we're not talking about videos that you load and play and you're iOS device. We're talking about video that is embedded in web-pages. Are you watching those during your 6 hour flight?

And maybe more to the point web video does revolve around iOS devices, because iOS users watch orders of magnitude more video than anybody else.

I'm reasonably sure you're greatly overestimating how much web-based video iOS devices consume.

> We're talking about video that is embedded in web-pages. Are you watching those during your 6 hour flight?

Increasingly, yes, I am watching those during my 6-hour flights. But I'm not talking about video embedded in web pages exclusively; I'm talking about video delivered via the web.

> Internet Explorer still has a larger market share than Safari

No doubt. But if you re-read what I wrote, I was trying to refute the parent comment's statement that "of course WebM exclusivity is the right way to go" without playing the IE card. I think IE's relevance ("in the arenas of both web video and The Future") is extremely questionable, so I don't want argument built on it. But if you accept that IE is relevant, then "of course WebM exclusivity is the right way to go" sounds even more crazy.

I'm talking about video delivered via the web.

Genuinely curious: What video are you talking about here that is delivered to your iOS device via the web? Are you referring to Netflix and iTunes? Or something else?

Maybe "web video" is too lazy of a term. What I'm talking about is video transferred via HTTP (or other protocol) from one computer to another. So, yes, that would be Netflix, iTunes, Hulu, YouTube, BitTorrent... Everything. I couldn't even guess what percentage of that whole is video embedded into HTML pages.

I make the distinction because, I think it's important to consider the problem in the larger context of digital media and connected devices, not just in the specific context of HTML rendered in a browser window. Right now we're talking about which video format is right for the HTML video tag, but the implications beyond that are huge. My response to the parent comment was not so much that I think "H.264 rulez," but that discussion of this subject was anything but "stupid" or "pointless whining." I'd like to see this discussion go on.

Late last year, my employer decided to walk away from a project that I had devoted 14 months of my life to because they were sued over SMS patents. This shouldn't be a debate about how much Apple fanboys love patents, when the debate is really about which compromises to make so that we can all make things with computers before we die. For example:

Is H.264 more of a threat to Internet video than fractured video support in web browsers? If you want to keep the debate to embedded video, that's a better question. H.264 made video finally good enough to watch on the Internet. Hardware-decoding made it possible to watch web video without melting your laptop battery. It solved real problems. And the promise of HTML5 video reinvigorated a whole lot of beleaguered content producers and developers. People are understandably reluctant to trade those things back. If you want to persuade them, explain what they get in that trade.

I think that if we talked about it, rather than calling names, we'd find that not many people are great lovers of software patents as they exist now. But then we'd have to be honest about what we're really fighting about: which battles to pick and who's children (HTML5 video, in this case) get sacrificed on the battlefield.