[est31]

Cats, as cute as they are, are a major contributor as well.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/cat-bird...

> Feral cats on islands are responsible for at least 14% global bird, mammal, and reptile extinctions and are the principal threat to almost 8% of critically endangered birds, mammals, and reptiles.

https://www.doi.org/10.1111/j.1365-2486.2011.02464.x

[chiefalchemist]

Two more from The Atlantic:

- How Cats Used Humans to Conquer the World - -- Ancient DNA from 209 cats over 9,000 years tell the story of their dispersal. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/06/cat-domi...

- The End of Cats: An Interview With the New Zealand Economist Calling to Eliminate All Kitties -- "The cat lobby here is just as feral, self-centered and as balmy as your gun lobby is" https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-end...

[wutbrodo]

> "The cat lobby here is just as feral, self-centered and as balmy as your gun lobby is"

Damn, that is quite the quote. I imagine he's not quite being fair (though I admittedly have little exposure to the pet politics of New Zealand", but I have noticed a strong and immediate current of defensiveness among cat owners whenever anything negative about cats is brought up (in a way that's absent when say, domestic dogs as a vector for disease are brought up). Though it's perhaps a little understandable that cat lovers would be a little thin-skinned due to the general bad rap that cats get.

[rob74]

While that paper singles out cats, any introduced mammal species (rats, foxes, dogs etc.) on an island with ground-nesting and/or flightless birds is a huge problem...

[A_I]

Yes, that's a massive issue in New Zealand. We have a programme called Predator Free 2050 aiming to address it. There are some very interesting organisations working on solutions, such as the Cacophony Project (https://cacophony.org.nz/)

[chiefalchemist]

I added this up the thread, but here again so you don't miss it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-end...

[Kaiyou]

What a madman. Cats > birds.

[galangalalgol]

Not just mammals. Fireants got most of the quail when they arrived in the woods I grew up in. Neighbors lost most of their guinea hens too. And rabbits got pretty scarce.

[ljf]

Don't only blame cats:

https://www.livescience.com/27330-dogs-disrupt-wildlife.html

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-...

[wutbrodo]

There's a bit of a difference here: the staggering figures for wildlife killed by cats that they cite is for the US:

> the felines kill between 1.4 billion and 3.7 billion birds and between 6.9 billion and 20.7 billion small mammals, such as meadow voles and chipmunks, each year.

But since free-roaming dogs are very uncommon in the US (and most of the developed world), they have to jump to strays and owned free-roaming dogs across the world to make their comparison.

To be clear, the latter is on point relative to what we're discussing in this thread (eg the feral cats statistic). But there are solutions in reach that would be acceptable for dealing with strays (eg, what we do for dogs in the US), that apply to both dogs and cats. The difference is that this would cause dogs' threat to the local environment to nearly vanish, while cats would still pose a massive threat to local wildlife due to owners that let their cats roam.

[gaoshan]

This. People in suburban and urban areas should be banned from having outdoor cats, period.

[coldtea]

Yes, let's make the life of a pet miserable so we can have urban/suburban birds...

As if the problem is the loss of birds in Manhattan or Queens, and not the loss of birds in millions of acres of rural USA (where cats are not really the problem), for example...

[lawlessone]

>Yes, let's make the life of a pet miserable so we can have urban/suburban birds...

Responsible people don't let their dogs roam the streets as they can be a threat to strangers, children etc.

why should we treat cat's any differently especially when cats kill far more.

[Buttons840]

The reason you gave for not allowing dogs to roam does not apply to cats.

[Angostura]

We shouldn't be making like for pets more miserable. We should be explaining to people the damage that cats to to the local ecology and dissuading them from having them. A fun talk I had with my kids.

[icebraining]

Kids are far more destructive for the environment than cats, though.

[simonh]

Allowing one damaging thing isn't a good enough reason for allowing another damaging thing. In both cases the costs and benefits need to stand on their own merits.

[icebraining]

Actually, no, I don't agree with that. It's more of a balancing act than a piecemeal analysis. Being generally frugal leaves you more space to waste a few resources on specific things. Now, some things are over the limit regardless of how frugal you are generally, and pet cats may or may not be one of those.

[icebraining]

Sure, but it still reads like a guy idling his Hummer so he can explain the environmental effects of someone's bicycle.

[PhasmaFelis]

Source on that? Most kids don't make a habit of killing local wildlife. Or are you using "kids" as a proxy for "habitat loss from rising human population"?

[icebraining]

I'm including indirect kills over their lifetime, not just direct kills over the childhood (kittens aren't capable of killing that much either), but otherwise, it's a fairly 1:1 comparison, nothing to do with whether the human population is rising or not.

[Angostura]

And nuclear weapons are more destructive than my 16 year old. So that's all good then.

Sorry, what point were you trying to make?

[icebraining]

If you were a producer of nuclear weapons and were warning people of the destructiveness dangers of having 16 year olds, I'd find it absurd. Wouldn't you?

Essentially, it's hypocritical to talk about environmental dangers on one activity when performing a much more environmentally destructive activity.

[coldtea]

Well, an urban centre doesn't have much "local ecology" to begin with...

[Kaiyou]

The only birds in my city are pidgeons (that defecate everywhere), sparrows and crows. At least the only ones I actually see.

[Angostura]

Which city would that be? Because I suspect you would be surprised by the levels of diversity that are clinging on.

[wavefunction]

I guess if those are our options then better for all if your cat is inside safe from cars and predators and yay we get birds!

[Ensorceled]

Or, you know, don't enslave cats in miserable settings.

[nradov]

I am fine with cats being miserable. That is an acceptable outcome.

[i_am_proteus]

Cats are very useful for removing rats. Cat ban is considered harmful.

[marcosdumay]

Hawks, owls and snakes are much more useful for removing rats, and cats are about as useful for removing those as they are for removing rats.

I do not support a cat ban, but that argument is not a good one.

[i_am_proteus]

Is there a way for me to reliably employ a hawk, owl, or snake around my property?