[wahern]

Every country spies on everyone else, including allies. But the extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme for allies. Importantly, there are rarely any repercussions, and Israel never cops to it, which is sort of a slap in the face.

When it was discovered that the U.S. was tapping Angela Merkel's cellphone there was public outrage in Germany, shock in the international community, and substantial consequences in terms of further reduced intelligence cooperation. It's worthwhile to mention that U.S. and German intelligence sharing is much more limited than between the U.S. and Israel, which is why Obama approved the tapping in the first place.

When U.S. espionage efforts in Japan were publicized, Obama ended up apologizing to Shinzo Abe.

AFAIK, the only other ally in recent U.S. history (past 50 years) that came close to the extent and depth of Israeli espionage is France. But nobody in the U.S. gave them a pass, either.

There are countless ways to distinguish Israeli efforts. Attempts to equivocate here basically amount to whataboutism. Until recently it would be hard to make strong value judgments because Israel is of course a sovereign nation with its own self interests, and their obnoxious spying seemed harmless enough considering they know how to keep a secret and were careful not to obstruct finalized Washington policy. But the problem with spying is that it can injure trust, and allies need to be able to trust each other as much as practicable. Now that Israel doesn't even pretend to be non-partisan wrt American politics, and even aggressively lobbied to kill the signed & sealed Iran nuclear deal, their efforts have arguably crossed a line even given the "special relationship" between the U.S. and Israel. (OTOH, I wonder which came first, the stingrays or Trumps public disclosure of secret Israeli intelligence. Perhaps Israel took the risk partly because of their distrust in Trump, either his honesty generally or at least his ability to keep a secret.)

[writepub]

Regardless of the attempt here at painting a country's foreign policy as partisan, any given country favors one U.S. party over the other. Right now, China probably favors a Democrat led government, so does Iran. The U.S. probably favors one Israeli party over the other. Your entire issue with this is likely because you perceive Israeli spying to oppose your political party. On those lines, would you classify Chinese/Iranian spying efforts as harmless, just because they currently bat for the Democrats? Or Canada, given that they are allied?

Also, it is being taken as fact that Israel is the originator of the sting rays, when in reality this isn't conclusive.

I believe the U.S. and Israel have proportionate response to each other being caught spying, it makes zero common sense for the U.S. to undermine it's own national security by repeatedly going easy on Israel.

So, citations outstanding on the following open ended claims made:

1. Extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme (and U.S spying in Israel isn't)

2. US is easy on Israeli spying efforts despite Israel being hard on US spying efforts

3. Israel is definitely behind the sting rays

4. Your reaction to this story is partisan

[wahern]

Because you managed to get under my skin, I'll give you some freebies:

2004: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-sep-03-na-spypr...

2008: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-spy-who...

Notice the thread: Israel is uniquely aggressive, especially as an ally.

This article is full of innuendo and conjecture (they say this up front), but provides insight into the complex web of business and intelligence relationships that make it easy for Israel to accomplish electronic surveillance in the U.S.: https://www.wired.com/2012/04/shady-companies-nsa/

A specific case of spying intended to undermine U.S. policymaking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_sc...

And the same thing 10 years later, except now patently partisan: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial...

Another thread: Allies typically spy on each other to understand their motivations and to predict their next moves. But Israel is increasingly doing it to enable them to directly interfere in domestic American politics. Some might excuse it as Israel being justifiably paranoid about Iran; others won't excuse it. But you can't deny that it stands apart.

The reported examples are just the tip of the iceberg. As people readily report, it's widely known/believed that the above is just the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes this results in misleading and false accusations, but this is a consequence of consistent, significant, long-term espionage activity, as well as the fact that their intelligence activities run the gambit of methodologies (legal and illegal), much of which doesn't fit the Hollywood definition of espionage.

[writepub]

> Because you managed to get under my skin...

I'm not betting on the remainder of your comment being objective. In 2019 if someone can get under your skin by just politely asking for evidence, maybe just maybe, you aren't engaging objectively.

Nonetheless, while there is some evidence pointing to aggressive spying by the Israelis, if you disconnect it from the context of what the U.S. does in Israel, the suggestions of favoritism seem disingenuous.

Most of all, there's no real evidence that 3-letter agencies and career state department employees, who largely handle domestic and international spying, would undermine U.S. interests, regardless of who is in the White House.

[wahern]

> Regardless of the attempt here at painting a country's foreign policy as partisan

It's not just my opinion, even AIPAC has become critical of Israel's departure from historic norms: https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/aipac-conference-urgent...

> Your entire issue with this is likely because you perceive Israeli spying to oppose your political party.

Yes, every Democrat must be fuming at attempts to spy on their political foe, President Trump. (FWIW, I'm not a registered Democrat.) But, okay, sure, there's definitely a growing undercurrent of anti-Israel sentiment among Democrats. And like many partisan issues it has it's obnoxious and counter-productive moments. But why do you think that is? It has gone hand-in-hand with the shift of Israeli lobbying to Republicans. Which came first is irrelevant and not worth arguing except to say it's been a slow shift among many parties (politicians, organizations, etc) across the board that has accelerated in the past 10 years.

> On those lines, would you classify Chinese/Iranian spying efforts as harmless, just because they currently bat for the Democrats? Or Canada, given that they are allied?

China and Iran aren't close allies. They're not even allies. And nothing I've said here or anywhere else would even suggest I believe their espionage is harmless. What their espionage doesn't do is destroy trust, because there's no trust to destroy. And Canada has no reputation for high-level espionage targeting Americans, let alone American political leaders. And whatever the extent of it, if it ever rose to the level of Israeli activity it'd be a shock to everybody inside the Beltway.

> Also, it is being taken as fact that Israel is the originator of the sting rays, when in reality this isn't conclusive.

Of course it's not conclusive. From a standpoint of someone without a security clearance, it's admittedly even less conclusive than the Russian election interference campaign, or 9/11 for that matter. Nothing is conclusive, not even the notion that the sun will come up tomorrow. Everything is contingent on the validity of circumstantial evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRNO1LFQBWI&feature=youtu.be...

> it makes zero common sense for the U.S. to undermine it's own national security by repeatedly going easy on Israel.

Neither domestic nor international politics is based on common sense, let alone an objectively rigorous analysis of the situation.

> citations outstanding on the following open ended claims made

I don't even know where to start with citations. I majored in International Affairs as an undergraduate and interned for several years at a K Street lobbying organization that promoted U.S.-Israel defense cooperation. I've read countless books and articles on these issues generally, and have personally met (albeit as an intern) people like John Bolton and an Israeli defense minister (probably Moshe Arens; previously I wrote Ehud Barak but that doesn't seem right looking at the timeline[1]). Of course we never discussed policy, let alone spying, but I'm comfortable believing that as compared to the vast majority of people I have a relatively objective perspective on U.S.-Israel security matters which, if anything, favors Israel.

The facts (such as they are) of Israeli spying in the U.S., the sentiments of the intelligence community, and the opinions of political scholars are readily available with the slightest bit of concerted effort. There's not even any significant dispute about these things generally, only about their prudence relative to Israel's existential security posture, and the substantive threat they pose to American security. As I said, Israel planting stringrays is bold but not that surprising. And, sure, it's entirely possible it will turn out Israel didn't do it, but the claim is quite credible, and regardless there's an exceptionally well established baseline consensus regarding the extent of Israeli espionage on which to uniquely criticize (or at least distinguish) their espionage activities. For example, the Newsweek article I and others posted earlier from 2014 references open Congressional meetings with testimony given by intelligence officials attesting to its unique nature.

You can stick to your own faux skepticism if you want. But if you applied it equally to everything in your life I'm not sure how you'd have confidence in the existence of anything you didn't personally observe yourself.

[1] It was during the week of several events in Washington for NATO's 50th anniversary, the same week and possibly even the same day I also got to shake hands with the President of Bulgaria who handed me a CD of propaganda[2] material to post on our website that supported their entry into NATO. So maybe sometime in 1999?

[2] And "propaganda" isn't an accusation or judgment. It's just the proper term for material used by governments to sell and persuade an idea or objective. I don't think we ever used much if any of the videos and other material on there as nobody wanted to write an article or essay as a pretense for publishing it. I don't think any American leaders ever had serious reservations about Bulgaria joining NATO, anyhow. That lack of caution is exactly why Russia has been so pissed about NATO expansion.