[hinkley]

I made it well into this decade before I was made aware of this fact. It's kind of a shock, still. At some point your planet is massive enough that you can't get into orbit with chemical rockets (even, I think, by flying them up like Burt Rutan?).

The implications for the Drake equation are pretty big.

Rockets without any promise of ever being able to break orbit are good for what, war? Would you keep developing them? Would you give up dreams of the stars? Would you look for intelligent life you couldn't ever possibly meet?

[jerf]

"At some point your planet is massive enough that you can't get into orbit with chemical rockets (even, I think, by flying them up like Burt Rutan?)."

Nuclear rockets don't seem to be very hard. They're somewhat dangerous if they explode, but they aren't very hard. Fairly solid prototypes were built decades ago and there's little to suggest they couldn't have been made production-grade [1]. We'd have them now if we didn't find the risk/reward to be too highly slanted to the "risk". Other species and other ecosystems may come to different conclusions, e.g., an ecosystem already more exposed to radiation and evolved to deal with much higher levels of it may judge it much less "risk" for some radionuclides to be scattered across the landscape in case of failure.

What can be more of a problem is being in a place where you have no obvious access to technology at all. However smart our cetacean buddies may be, it is not clear even at this point in the 21st century what path to technology they could possibly have from their starting point. "The literature", a.k.a. "science fiction" has hypothesized breeding programs to develop various tools, but it's still not entirely clear how they'd get from "breeding useful jellyfish" to, well, anything like technology as we know it. It's possible we're just not solving this problem because we don't have to, maybe there's some easy path with the right development path, but it's still not clear what that would be.

[1]: One of my markers for "the space age is truly here" is when we lift a nuclear rocket into space, sans fuel, and fuel it with space-sourced radionuclides. Earth-bound citizens will still complain, because "NUCLEAR BAD!", but their complaints will be ignorable at that point.

[hinkley]

Do solids settle out of air on a high gravity environment faster? The air would be thicker. Does gravity or buoyancy win than tug of war?

I spent a day once trying to figure out what the Bronze Age would be like for marine creatures. Oxidation is less of a problem but galvanic action is huge. Fire pretty much doesn't work, which blocks a whole bunch of precursors like ceramics.

[gcthomas]

Atmospheric density it a little more complicated: Venus has the same gravity as Earth but a thicker atmosphere, while Titan is a lot smaller and still has a surface pressure 50% more than we do at sea level.

[dan_mctree]

Couldn't marine creatures learn to collect air bubbles underwater in order to use fire?

[jerf]

How do they know that will lead to fire?

The big problem with marine technology isn't that it's totally impossible, it's that there's vast gulfs between various achievements and little sign that continued progress on some matter will lead somewhere. You could raise jellyfish to be transparent and lens shaped and build some telescopes, but how do you figure out that's a thing that might be a good idea? You might be able to turn an ocean vent into a forge, but how do you figure out that's a good idea? We had a path where we noticed certain rocks in a fire ooze useful metal, for instance. We didn't deduce from first principles the Periodic Table, guess the properties of metals from logic and maybe our interactions with (very soft!) silver and gold, determine it was likely that some of those colorful rocks are metallic salts, and then determine they might be useful to mine. We found they were useful to mine, then after thousands of years of civilization built on top of the resulting tools, only then figured out the why of a lot of those things.

This is one of those places where it's really a good idea to understand that despite the pretty Just So stories where science pre-dates engineering, in reality, engineering extremely frequently has predated science, at times by centuries. How are water-bound creatures going to figure out enough engineering to even get science going?

Certainly, as I said, they can breed things, but how do they even know where to try to go? How do they maintain the discipline to breed things over hundreds or thousands of generations? How do they get to genetic engineering?

There may be answers to this question but they sure aren't obvious.

[scarejunba]

So long as you're carrying all the fuel on you, right? If I can launch 1000 auxiliaries that resupply you and a 1,000,000 auxiliaries to resupply the 1000 auxiliaries I can go up farther.