[patthebunny]

Well that's nice. Totally makes up for a theocratic dictator having their father chopped up.

I guess they have no choice but to just accept it, because of the same dictator.

Can't believe this shitty government is our "ally". Fuck the Saudi Government.

[dang]

Can you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebaity comments to HN? I'm afraid you've already done it a lot, and it's not what HN is for. As you'll see if you review the site guidelines, we're trying for something a bit better than internet default here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[patthebunny]

[flagged]

[dang]

Ok, since you don't seem to want to use the site as intended, I've banned this account for the time being. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [e-mail] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

[alistproducer2]

In order to be legitimately upset with our government having"shitty allies", you first need to believe in the fiction that our government isn't shitty itself. A quick browse through history should relieve of such a fantasy. In fact you don't need to look at history. The policy of illegal sanctions begun under the last administration, and now the illegal blockade of Venezuela (which is resulting in the deaths of many civilians) should have you nice and clear-eyed about your government.

Once you understand that our government's primary function is to protect and expand markets for the capital class, you cease to be surprised or confused by it's actions. Google the coup instigated in behalf of United fruit. That was over 100 years ago, so none of this is new. Stop reading the New York times or any other mainstream publication for foreign policy opinion or news. Try alternative sites like greyzoneproject or truthdig if you want decent news.

[dragonwriter]

> In order to be legitimately upset with our government having"shitty allies", you first need to believe in the fiction that our government isn't shitty itself.

No, you don't. You can be upset about our government being shitty, and hold the shitty allies it chooses to support as one of the many exhibits demonstrating the general shittiness of the government.

[alistproducer2]

You're not wrong in that both things can be true at the same time.

I think the wording that more accurately describes my thoughts would be "... legitimately surprised."

[not_a_cop75]

You should really define shitty. What you are saying is you don't particularly like a country without the ability to actually describe why that is. It's comes off feeling like someone's opinion of their favorite sports team.

Certainly, the countries you like do things differently than the ones you want, but you won't even highlight those differences. No, instead it's only bad and good.

I'm frankly tired of people that can't describe in real thoughts what makes something great or terrible without falling back on the words that a two year old might make use of to describe their day.

Get creative. Go on a verbal tirade and tell me how you really feel. But please stop compressing your thoughts down to good, bad and shitty. If you really want to communicate, please do so.

You don't like capitalism? Because you're not making the money? What are the real reasons? You don't like communism? Because of the Gulag Archipelago? Be clear.

[alistproducer2]

What part of instigated coups on behalf of a fruit company and illegally killing people I'm Venezuela is unclear? Cause I literally typed those things in my parent comment. Those seem to me to be valid reasons for having issues with a government. It's ironic that a comment trying to persuade others to "get creative" is the comment that seems suspiciously like copypasta.

[not_a_cop75]

So you point to one incident to prove everything that exists about a country must be wrong? How does that logically work? Was there corruption? Yes. Which government doesn't have corruption. Tell me if you know.

Well, telling people to hate a country on the basis one one corrupt incident sounds suspiciously like IDF to me. If you think corruption is an issue, then why don't you do something about it, instead of whining that it's bad?

[alistproducer2]

"point to one incident" so I pointed out two things and clearly allude that if one does the research, you'll find many more than two things (Iranian revolution is an easy one).

"telling people to hate a country" the word hate never appears once in my comment. Again, you seem to be "responding" to some generalization of a viewpoint you don't like instead of what is actually on your screen. No disrespect but I don't really see any reason to continue to respond to you when you are making no effort to respond to what I'm actually writing.

[not_a_cop75]

No disrespect, but find another country the size of the USA that has as many things going decently for them. Yes, large governments breed corruption more easily. That seems to be a known at this point. That's why size plays into this.

[analog31]

My government doesn't reflect on me. I'll protest any government that I disapprove of.

[not_a_cop75]

One thing you should quickly learn is that "ally" does not mean "friend". An ally has similar enough goals to most of the time work together in those goals that are the same, and also to try not to encroach when goals are different.

[chrisco255]

There's 195 countries on the planet. You want to go to war with every single one whose leaders have people arbitrarily killed...you'd need to go to war with most of them, including the United States itself.

[sv123]

You don't have to go to war with each of them, there are other options. And you definitely don't have to prop up said leaders with the worlds most advanced military hardware.

[taxidump]

You need to think like the leader of a nation, not like the leader of an advocacy group. This is a playing field most people can't comprehend.

[_bfhp]

The idea that the rich and powerful breed are at another level than the commoners, and we can never aspire to the genius behind their choices, is not a new talking point but maybe one of the oldest.

[davidw]

> You need to think like the leader of a nation

It'd sure be nice if we had someone in DC doing that...

[patthebunny]

Right, what lobbying group paid their bribes this year.

Ah, military contractors are well up to date. Okay, lets toss them a few billion in Saudi weapons contracts.

How did I do?

[diminoten]

Incredibly poorly.

Nation states aren't supposed to have egos.

[dmix]

Iran managed to arm themselves very effectively without American help.

There’s a whole lot of lesser evils which define plenty of diplomatic decision making in that region.

[_bfhp]

If our instinct is to jump from allying with a nation to being at war, we have accepted the most violent countries' axioms of how the world must work. Bush Jr's "either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists" mentality and policy have certainly sown some seeds.

[klyrs]

Go to war with? No. There's a wide gulf between "close allies" and "at war." We're selling them arms, buying their oil, and trading intelligence with them.

[logfromblammo]

I can't help thinking that if the US were forced at ICBM-point to choose sides in the Saudi Arabia vs. Iran international rivalry, Iran would be the better choice, even after all the terrible history between Iran and the US.

It's like fighting Christianity's Devil by making a blood pact with Ialchtaluogoloth, Inscrutable Lord of the Slime Pits From Beyond the Dead Stars. At least Lucifer can appreciate a finely tailored suit.

If Saudi Arabia didn't have light, sweet oil reserves and control of the Hajj, they wouldn't have much of anything at all.

[hluska]

> It's like fighting Christianity's Devil by making a blood pact with Ialchtaluogoloth, Inscrutable Lord of the Slime Pits From Beyond the Dead Stars. At least Lucifer can appreciate a finely tailored suit.

This is an excellent paragraph and I bet I would enjoy reading more of what you write. If you happen to blog, would you mind emailing me a link? My email address is in my profile.

[option]

while your statement is technically true, the sa is the most disgusting state in the world. IMHO ideologically even farther from western democracies then north korea is

[wahern]

I find that statement ridiculous. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic society with an absolute monarch. The things that occur there may seem abhorrent, but they follow relatively strict norms. Capricious things occur, but even the monarch responds to internal political and cultural pressures in service to a nominally higher authority.

North Korea is ruled by the capricious whim of a single person who makes the rules as he goes along, and whose decisions have led to multiple famines and other atrocities resulting in the deaths of millions of North Koreans, still ongoing. And Kim Jong-un doesn't need a cover up when he assassinates someone; he's a god incarnate.

Have a little perspective. It's easier to criticize Saudi Arabia precisely because it's more like Western society than North Korea, even if that similarity is often illusory.

[patthebunny]

There is a wide gap between war and staunch ally.

Like, we could stop supporting their genocide in Yemen. Could stop selling weapons to them period. Could stop buying their oil. Could start putting out sanctions. Could actually demand some accountability for their role in 9/11.

Whole spectrum between what we have now and outright war.

[rolltiide]

Financial compensation is an Islamic cleric and state compliant way to resolve deaths over there.

Of course you can read the book one thousand different ways.

The point is that it is nice they fulfilled that promise.

edit: remember, their religious clerics can say whatever they want and thats the law in a theocracy. English wikipedia is not going to describe that adequately

[mcny]

> The point is that it is nice they fulfilled that promise.

In a free society, I'd have asked for for MBS' life under retributive justice. I wouldn't want him killed, just would want a much fairer diya (double digit share of Aramco?).

The Wikipedia article says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diya_(Islam)

> It only applies when victim's family want to compromise with the guilty party; otherwise qisas applies.

[wahern]

But it's not a free society. It's not only an Islamic society (a very distinct kind, with scriptural exegesis not lifted from Wikipedia), but an absolute monarchy as well.

From a humanistic standpoint, the assassination was abhorrent. From an international politics and international law standpoint, intolerable. From the standpoint of a recently elevated absolute ruler suppressing dissent, diligent.

As the previous poster said, at least they're paying benefits, even though it's all part of the cover up. From a Western, guilt-based moralist standpoint such benefits can seem like a slap in the face. From a Middle Eastern, honor-based moralist standpoint, it's the decent thing to do, regardless of what precipitated it.

[PopeDotNinja]

I'm not proud of what the government here in America is doing to its own citizens. Prison population, border detainment, Guantanamo... The USA is imprisons over 2 million people. Our human rights record is not strong.

[soperj]

Also not that far removed from the same sort of behaviour; Joe McCarthy.

[patthebunny]

I think you might be assuming I think more highly of the American government.