[blunte]

Rich Hickey is very convincing... he's just great at communicating in presentations, and he has plenty of good arguments why dynamic typing is the best for Clojure (and essentially for real-world problem solving).

My summary is: the extra burdens - tight coupling, code verbosity, custom type propagation for dealing with sparse or varying data - are just not worth the cost.

Also, I don't think there's much real evidence that static typing prevents production bugs. If you're doing decent testing, you'll catch those problems. And if your solution is fewer LOC and easier to reason about, you're more likely to not make type mistakes.

[a0]

I think I don't mind lack types as much in immutable languages. Clojure and Erlang are like that. But they're also both simple languages with simple semantics.

One issue I have with Clojure is when I have to work with nested datatypes to perform transformations. It's just too hard to keep the shape of that data in your head. Types help with that.

Another important thing is modelling business domains with types. By this I really just mean record and variant types and not some advanced type-fu. It really helps seeing what kind of data your application manages.

[iLemming]

> One issue I have with Clojure is when I have to work with nested datatypes to perform transformations

Out of so many "excuses" to dislike Clojure I've heard over the years, the first time I see something like this, and this sounds wrong for a few reasons. Dealing with nested transformations is not harder or easier in Clojure, it is just different, due to immutable data structures.

Besides, if you need to deal with deeply nested data perhaps it has to be broken down into smaller pieces. Maps are extremely composable in Clojure.

There are libraries that can help you with transformations, you can "walk" the structure, you can use zippers, you can use Specter (a library that I haven't find a use for in over three years of writing Clojure).

Modeling business domains with types is a valid point though. However, I find exactly that is the reason why using Clojure for building real business apps is so much simpler and faster. You are not restricted by the boundaries of whatever type system you use. You don't get stuck in analysis paralysis trying to prototype things in an overly complex type system. At the same time you don't necessarily have to throw the types away. Type systems do help and absolutely have certain benefits, etc. And Clojure has a pretty nice one called Clojure.Spec. In Spec you can for example conform that your function returns specific shape of data. You can use specs to validate inputs, produce human readable error-messages, generate fake data and use it for example for property-based testing. Specs can be shared between different systems, between front-end and back-end, etc.

[blunte]

>One issue I have with Clojure is when I have to work with nested datatypes to perform transformations. It's just too hard to keep the shape of that data in your head. Types help with that.

And in Ruby or Java, I have the same problem with objects.

No matter what your method of interaction, keeping up with levels of abstraction is hard.