[mistermann]

I hope some day to encounter a situation where a non-psychedelic-experienced person lecturing the experienced about how silly they are agrees to "put their money where their mouth is" so to speak and actually try it out for themselves, and then return to the previous argument and reflect upon it with the new insight they've gained.

Of course they wouldn't suddenly "get it" entirely like in the movies, but I think it would have to be somewhat interesting to see their reaction to going from absolute confidence in their perceptions and knowledge, to.....well, whatever you call the state one is in after having had such experiences. I know for me, even being fairly experienced, returning to a psychedelic state is rather shocking....it seems like it is literally impossible to store even remotely proper memories of it in one's mind, at least mine. Ineffable doesn't seem like the right word for it.

[vinceguidry]

I have a lot of meditation experience, and deep trance states are also extremely hard to hold on to. Meditating on the phenomena has revealed that it's a combination of unfamiliarity with the subject matter along with the sheer complexity of the experience that leads to inability to remember all the details.

People also tend to forget that ordinary life is crazy complicated in its own right. We don't have trouble remembering it because our brains have tuned itself to compress and operate on those kinds of experiences symbolically.

But since we don't have appropriate symbolic representation for 'deep experience' it gets shoved out of mind before we can form memories.

[mistermann]

> But since we don't have appropriate symbolic representation, our (or, most people's at least) mind is literally unable to store the experience.

This is my armchair theory on it. I imagine someone smarter than I has speculated on it, but I've yet to encounter anything on the subject.

I'd also like to read anything on comparisons of the two from people who are experienced in both, although I suspect interactions between the two may skew things a bit.

[Faark]

I'm not a fan of the "you have to experience it to understand it" mantra.

I understand experiencing something yourself can be a very easy/efficient way for humans to learn. But the ability to transfer knowledge and understanding in other ways even for complicated thoughts is one of the things that sets us apart from lesser beings on this planet.

Don't get me wrong, I understand there are effects. If alcohol weakens myelin and thus boosts unusual interactions between neurons (my layman understanding based on little education on the topic) it might be a good tool to boost creativity, within reason and with a bunch of asterisks attached. Meditation helping you to understand and control your mental state sounds very useful.

But yeah, for psychedelic I've not yet encountered a convincing elevator pitch of it providing lasting benefits beyond being an interesting experience. At least benefits in areas I consider myself lacking. At the same time I've read enough about the AI control problem that messing around with your thinking should only be done with a lot of caution. And an online personality I follow had a shroom trip, including a limited existential crisis and following panic attacks. Just that seems like a high price to pay, considering I don't see it having made him a better person.

So yeah, I'll hold off on such an experience until I get a plausible lecture from some psychedelic advocate or at least encounter statistical evidence of it being beneficial.