[Hitton]

I consider such approach rather oppressive and reeking of colonialism attitudes. It sounds like: "Fuck Brasil, let's ban them from using their natural resources, while we happily keep using ours". There is literally no reason why other countries countries couldn't plant more forests to enhance their carbon depositions, now Brasil thanks to their rainforests does more of biosequestration than any other country on Earth and don't they dare doing less and not pick other nations' slack...

Also 12 years is just another arbitrary alarmist number, similarly to recently heard 18 months [1]. But in reality there is no upcoming end of the world [2].

[1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736

[2]: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/no-climate...

[sprafa]

IT is colonialist, patronizing, and evil. The US and the "developed" world have set course for self annihilation and the US in particular has done nothing to solve its own path by leaving the Paris Agreement. But hey let's blame Brasil, easier than solving our own problems.

[vfc1]

Two things can be true at the same time. Clearly, both countries should change their behavior. I think what is happening in Basil is mostly due to the West fault, due to demand for cheap meat.

The Amazonian forest is mostly being tore down due to soy production for cattle feed.

[piva00]

Why are you so defensive about all of this?

[sprafa]

So defensive? It’s the second time news like this have shown up and it’s the second time people have suggested sanctions. Usually Americans living under a regime that is one of the few countries to pull out of the Paris Agreement. You don’t see a problem with that? Why is Brasil having to shoulder the blame for CO2 mostly produced elsewhere?

There’s a lot that can be done but really it’s the usual thing for me - if you’re going to criticise someone clean up your own house first.

[piva00]

I'm a Brazilian, living in Sweden and I'm going to push and get in touch with people I know who have connections or work at Riksdagen (the Swedish parliament) to start any kind of discussion on sanctioning the beef and mining industry in Brazil.

It's possible to criticise something even if you live in a glasshouse, even more when what's being done down there is senseless for the future of the whole country, like I mentioned on another comment: this is utterly myopic and stupid, extract and destroy now to have something for 5 years or do the proper thing and invest in educating society taking 1-2 generations (so about 20-30 years) and reap the benefits for the next centuries.

[sprafa]

I am also Brazilian but yeah I’m not saying any of this is right. I just don’t get the sanctions idea being so popular around here.

[lightbyte]

If you asked, most people who are arguing for sanctions on Brasil would also support sanctions on America for pulling out of the Paris Agreement.

>if you’re going to criticise someone clean up your own house first.

Is a terrible attitude to have and will never lead to any solutions.

[scarejunba]

How is this not obvious? Industrialization is a rapid road to prosperity. The West industrialized and is prosperous, and now requires the other countries not take the path they took? It’s never going to happen.

You can’t dump 7 times as much carbon as a Brazilian into the atmosphere and then ask them to cut emissions. Especially when you have the money and resources to be carbon negative and choose not to.

[piva00]

The economy at those times was VERY different, there weren't alternatives that are getting cheaper than oil nowadays for energy, the future is in green energy, pushing this agenda of "we need to develop the same way as the current developed nations have done is the only way" is stupid and myopic.

If Brazil was interested in developing itself (and I know firsthand how that place works, fucks sake, I lived my first 27 years of life there) it'd be pushing its development through research on this new green field (pun intended) that is still immature and open for the newcomers to be bold and create the industry the world will rely on. It's a prime place to research and develop renewable technology with abundant hydro and solar energy, with vast swaths of land covered by the most diverse bioma on Earth. Brazil could be doing novel technologies to sell the future world on this, instead it's pushed down by exporting mostly iron ore, soybeans and beef, it's stuck in the past and society is kept uneducated and living on primary commodities exports. Hell, even with a lot of oil Brazil has no technology to refine and produce its own fuel, it sells the oil out just to buy it back in the form of refined oil products.

Brazil doesn't have any internal incentive, politically, to become better, technologically, educationally or culturally, it's a place stuck in time, nothing works, no infrastructure is properly developed. I know that, I haven't visited it for 3 years after moving to Sweden and going back to visit friends and family just made me see how... Nothing really ever changes, projects are always late, bogged down by corruption and bureaucracy, overspending and ultimately most of them are never finished. Lack of reliable and proper transportation in major cities keep poor people poor, being stuck in a bus 4 hours of your day to earn R$ 1.500,00 per month doesn't leave you much time and energy to be able to study, that money barely cover your basic expenses, it's horrible.

So instead of complaining that other countries want it to do better do some thinking and see that it's because there are many other ways to be better, there is no need to follow the missteps of other countries, pave a fucking new way instead of always looking up to what others have done and mimic it. It's the country of poor imitation, the only benefit is that we are inventive and given constraints our people are really creative.

Brazil, as we say, will always be the country of the future. The problem is that the future never arrives to become the present over there.

[lightbyte]

So the answer is to throw our hands in the air and give up because our ancestors did something we now to be extremely harmful so we have to let everyone else do it too?

[sprafa]

Absolutely not. But I don’t think sanctions are a great idea.

[piva00]

And what would be your proposal? Bolsonaro will only listen when the scummy people who supports him (and I'm talking about business, not the voters) get hurt in their pockets.

[vfc1]

No other country can plant a rainforest the size of Amazonia, come on that does not make sense.

The Amazonia rainforest is unique and cannot be replaced, I don't get how the rate that it's getting tore down to plant soy crops for cattle feed to allow for the production of cheap meat is not alarming to anyone.

[scarejunba]

If you want the rainforest to remain, then pay for it to remain. Otherwise, let those who own the rainforest use the rainforest.

[screye]

You may have been downvoted, but the the developed world has yet to provide a good retort to your point.

Such a question is answered by blatant hypocrisy every time.

[marmadukester39]

Who says any human should “own” a rainforest?

[newsgremlin]

Who says any human should "own" the oil in the ground or the ground itself?

We can't champion private ownership while denying private ownership to others. Especially when you have no control over said land.

It's cliche to blame capitalism, but it is capitalism that has given us a distorted view of the world and of the concept of ownership.

[lonelappde]

> We can't champion private ownership while denying private ownership to others.

Of course we can. It's called colonialist and it's what made Europe and USA the economic powerhouses of the world.

[piva00]

I don't agree on sanctioning Brazil to Cuba levels. I do agree with sanctioning the beef/cattle industry there and I want to explain why:

Some of the staunchest supporters of Bolsonaro are from agrobusiness, they support him because of the removal of environmental protections so they are more free to take over land, illegally at first and I see that more and more this government will create frameworks to make that legal.

They support him because of his anti-environmental stance, because of his defunding of IBAMA (Brazil's environmental protection agency, responsible for investigation and enforcement of those laws), defunding and removing security to the officers that go to remote areas on the north of Brazil. These people risk their lives, that area of Brazil is a wild west with hitmen and killings happening if those farmers get a wiff that their illegal land grab is being scrutinised. Usually those officers would have support from the police and the army or national guard, now they have nothing and they refuse to do their inspections without it.

Apart from that, just this year his government has approved 290 new pesticides to be used in Brazilian fields, there are another 500+ to be "analysed" but will probably get a straight stamping out of it, news this week just reported that half a BILLION bees have died in Brazil this year, there is a very strong signal to connect those.

I was born and raised in Brazil, I've been educated and hearing about these massive land grabs and deforestation in the Amazon since I was a kid in 4th grade, it's never got much better and that is because of the agroindustry in Brazil, if the world keeps consuming beef from there it's only going to get worse. And fast.

So yes, I advocate now for sanctioning these industries that are the base supporters and financiers of Bolsonaro, he has the evangelical votes but those people are a danger to Brazil's society, not to the world as a whole, cattle farmers burning and destroying the Amazon, mining and oil companies applying for permits to install themselves in the jungle, THOSE are the industries that are gonna kill the Amazon and a big part of Earth with it.