[gambiting]

Settlement Scheme is a permanent residence certificate(at least the email I got from the Home Office says so) and yet no certificate can actually be obtained from the home office for this. The border agent can go on gov.uk website and check I guess?

[mytailorisrich]

I am talking about the existing permanent resident status under EU law.

But the important point is the question I asked: have they suggested that a visa will be required to enter the country?

My understanding is that visa-free travel will continue so it should not really matter whether you can prove status.

[gambiting]

>>But the important point is the question I asked: have they suggested that a visa will be required to enter the country?

They haven't. They are just saying that the free movement will end, meaning that as an EU citizen you don't have the automatic right to enter the UK....but no alternative was offered. EU citizens are inelligable for all UK visas right now anyway, because they are specifically worded in such a way and would need to be changed.

>>I am talking about the existing permanent resident status under EU law.

And this might be strange to some, but you can be totally elligable for the full settled status but not for the permanent residence card(I was in this exact situation - I have lived in the UK for 8 years, but the first 4 "don't count" towards the permanent residence status because I was a student without private health insurance(which was only added as a requirement after I started my studies) - but I still got the full Settled Status because that doesn't care why you were here, only if you lived here 5 years or more).

>>My understanding is that visa-free travel will continue so it should not really matter whether you can prove status.

Which again is an issue, because it might mean that legally you don't have the right to be here at all, it's just that the border controls are letting it slide for a while until some other system is put in place. Which causes a whole set of other issues, like this time not counting towards any citizenship application(or making it impossible in the first place, since you are here "illegally"), being unable to rent a place or use the NHS.

[dfawcus]

> student without private health insurance(which was only added as a requirement after I started my studies)

As I understand it, that was always a requirement due to the wording of the treaties (or regulations / directives).

It is just that UK government hadn't previously highlighted that they viewed NHS entitlement as not counting as "medical insurance".

There is supposed to be an ongoing dispute with the Commission over this point.

See here and links from it: https://www.freemovement.org.uk/comprehensive-sickness-insur...

[mytailorisrich]

"free movement" means something much deeper than visa-free travel.

Anyway, I think this is a storm in a teacup. In the circumstances EU citizens woild just be waved in as they are now until the dust settles and proper procedures are in place.

That wouldn't mean EU citizens would be here illegally either.

[gambiting]

>>That wouldn't mean EU citizens would be here illegally either.

I have exactly ZERO trust that this is the interpretation that the government will take.

When I first tried applying for the permanent residence card, I was told that according to the home office

1) As an EU citizen you need to be exercising your "EU free movement rights" to be in the UK legally

2) If you are a student without private health insurance, you are not exercising your "EU free movement rights"

3) I spoke with multiple Home Office agents, some saying that it means that a student without private health insurance is here illegaly, others saying that no, an EU student without private health insurance is here legally, they are "just not exercising their EU free movement rights". No, they weren't able to explain what exactly they mean by that or which legislation says so.

This strikes me as the exact same situation. No, you don't have the right to be here, but at the same time, you do, but no, we can't point you to any law that would say so.

[makomk]

That's a huge long-running mess. The EU rules on free movement are written around the assumption that health care is insurance-based, and contain a rule stating that people must either be employed or have "comprehensive sickness insurance" in order to exercise that right for more then three months. This clashes badly with the UK's unique setup of healthcare for all that's free at the point of use. Other EU countries with "universal healthcare" are set up as state-run insurance schemes where you must either be employed or claiming one of a specific set of benefits to have healthcare, and this works fine with the EU rules - they can just charge an insurance fee to students from other EU states. Non-EU nationals residing in the UK pay a similar surcharge to fund their use of the NHS, but EU nationals can't be charged that because it technically isn't insurance. The European Commission's interpretation of the rules is that the NHS counts as comprehensive sickness insurance and every EU national who moves here should be able to get free healthcare forever even if they don't pay a penny; this would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that we're basically the only EU state that has to do this!

The right to permanent residence after five years is then restricted to "Union citizens and their family members who have resided in the host Member State in compliance with the conditions laid down in this Directive during a continuous period of five years". So it depends heavily on how those conditions are interpreted.

[gpderetta]

It is not unique. Italy (another large EU founding state) has pretty much exactly the same setup as UK.

edit: the Italian SSN (Servizio Sanitario Nazionale) was basically modeled on the NHS.

[mytailorisrich]

It is perfectly legal to enter the country and reside here as student.

But if you do not have health insurance this does not count towards gaining permanent residence (and thus citizenship thereafter).

If you need legal advice you should talk to a solicitor specialised in immigration law, not to a random person in a call centre.

[gambiting]

I did actually, and the immigration lawyer I spoke to said that the home office is wrong about this, because the EU doesn't specify any such requirement - just that if you lived in a member country for 5 years you automatically get the right to permanent residence there. That's it. There are no further conditions attached. So UK breaks this law by requiring anything extra, but her advice was that yes, it is entirely possible to take the Home Office to court over this and win, it's just going to take a lot of time and money(and I had neither).

And besides, it's just not some random people in the call centre - Home Office's own website said that you only reside in the UK legally if you are exercising your free movement rights - I mean, that clearly reads to me as "if you don't, you are here illegally". It can't work both ways.