[scarface74]

Isn’t a better question, why are you interviewing for the same positions in your 40s that a fresh grad could do? I’m 45 and still mostly work at jobs where I’m officially a “senior software engineer”, occasional “team lead” or “architect”. But, I am not trying to compete with fresh grads.

In your 40s, you should have a trusted network of former managers, coworkers, and external recruiters that help you bypass a lot of the BS.

[ziddoap]

>Isn’t a better question, why are you interviewing for the same positions in your 40s that a fresh grad could do?

Do you generally look down on everyone who needs a job, or just the ones who need a job and are old?

If you can't find work as a senior, and your options are junior or not working, which would you choose?

>In your 40s, you should have a trusted network of former managers, coworkers, and external recruiters that help you bypass a lot of the BS.

Shame on those not as lucky, extroverted, or with the same opportunities as you, eh?

[scarface74]

Do you generally look down on everyone who needs a job, or just the ones who need a job and are old?

I’m 45. I stayed at one company way too long until I was 35 and didn’t get aggressive about my career until 10 years ago.

If you can't find work as a senior, and your options are junior or not working, which would you choose?

In 2019, in many major cities in the US - including Atlanta where I live - an experienced developer looking for a job is such a rare breed that you have to fight off recruiters. In the last 10 years it’s never taken me more than a month to find a job at whatever level I was at at the time (I was an “expert beginner” in 2009). I’m not a special snowflake, I’m just a bog standard “Enterprise Developer”

Shame on those not as lucky, extroverted, or with the same opportunities as you, eh?

I graduated from a no name college in a small town in 1996. What “great opportunities”?

The last thing anyone has ever called me is “extroverted”, I did what I had to do because I didn’t want to be at the age I’m at now without having the optionality of changing jobs.

[ziddoap]

Ah, so anyone with a certain amount of experience applying for junior-like positions is just being dumb. I get it. You should let the OP know that they should be fighting off recruiters instead of applying for jobs you feel are too lowly for their experience.

[lordCarbonFiber]

Anyone applying for a junior position should expect to have skills matching or exceeding the other people applying for the same position. Saying candidates should get a free pass because of age sounds far more discriminatory than an even playing field.

If you've been in the industry for years, have a stalled career, and are looking down the ladder for a job is there a sinister bias against age, or are you just not qualified?

[ziddoap]

I didn’t say free pass. I didn’t say they shouldn’t have the skills needed to do the job. This is about CS trivia interviews, non-applicable to the job. In these cases, fresh graduates have an advantage.

I also never said that it is a "sinister bias". Are some of them not qualified? Obviously. But there are people who, believe it or not, are experienced and qualified but have other circumstances which force them to step down a rung on the corporate ladder.

As I have stated elsewhere, I don’t think this is a widespread problem. I certainly don’t think anyone should get a free pass.

From my other comment:

>The issue (again, my interpretation) is taking something that is taught in school, somewhat rarely applied in practice (or, is replaced by a tool/library/whatever in practice) and putting some sort of spin on it then expecting someone to be able to answer it. Or taking a problem which already has an industry-accepted solution and asking the candidate to remake the wheel in 30 minutes.

If your fresh out of school you're more likely to remember that one obscure class you took few months ago which covered some trick situation. Or you'll remember that class which taught you about that industry-accepted solution and the why behind it.

If you've been in the field for 15 years using some tool/library to solve the problem, you're less likely to remember that one obscure class you took 15 years ago which explained the origin. Or that class which covered the trick situations.

[scarface74]

I didn’t say free pass. I didn’t say they shouldn’t have the skills needed to do the job. This is about CS trivia interviews, non-applicable to the job. In these cases, fresh graduates have an advantage.

And they are at a great disadvantage if they get a whiteboard architecture interview. If you want to apply for a job as a junior developer in an environment where they care about leetCode skills, you have to be willing to put in the effort. I am not willing to do so. Therefore I’ve optimized my skillset, my network and where I’ve chosen to live so I don’t have to.

I didn’t say free pass. I didn’t say they shouldn’t have the skills needed to do the job. This is about CS trivia interviews, non-applicable to the job. In these cases, fresh graduates have an advantage.

There are all loads of websites and books that can get you back up to speed with that if you need it.

[scarface74]

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong. But the reality of the job market is that if you’re 40+ and not willing to spend months doing leetCode and don’t do what I’m suggesting, you are going to end up in a situation where you can’t find a job.

[notacoward]

You haven't answered the OP's question. Just because such interviews are avoidable, at some expense that I'll get to later, is orthogonal to whether they perpetuate age discrimination.

Yes, everyone "should" have a trusted network like you say, but that only works if you're a bit flexible about what you work on or where. If you have more specific goals regarding projects, locations, markets, scale, or salary, you might find only two or three places hiring and they might all have blanket whiteboard-interview policies even for senior or specialized hires. That's how I found myself in front of a whiteboard at 52. It worked out for me, but what if it hadn't? I could have compromised on some of my goals and used my network to get a job elsewhere. I've been there and done that too, but I wouldn't have welcomed the compromise. I also no longer wish to participate in a system of side-door hires that perpetuates discrimination.

It's easy to say what others "should" do, but they're not you. They might have different values and priorities that leave them with less flexibility regarding whether to do such interviews.

[scarface74]

You haven't answered the OP's question. Just because such interviews are avoidable, at some expense that I'll get to later, is orthogonal to whether they perpetuate age discrimination.

It’s not age discrimination. There is nothing stopping anyone at any age from studying “Cracking the Code”, going on the various leetCode sites and practicing.

If you have more specific goals regarding projects, locations, markets, scale, or salary, you might find only two or three places hiring and they might all have blanket whiteboard-interview policies even for senior or specialized hires.

In that case, you do what it takes. I said below that because of $bad_decisions, I found myself at 35 only qualified for mid level roles. 8 years later after following my own advice - job hopping, networking, Resume Driven Development, etc., I found myself reaching close to the maximum salary I could reasonable get as a developer/team lead/architect in my local market.

I don’t have to learn LeetCode to qualify for the next level, but I have spent the last two years immersing myself into all things AWS and cloud development/dev ops and project management so I could qualify to be an overpriced consultant.

If I wanted to move to the west coast and work for a FAANG, I would have spent the last year or two preparing for that instead.

I could have compromised on some of my goals and used my network to get a job elsewhere. I've been there and done that too, but I wouldn't have welcomed the compromise.

And the poster can make the decision. If he wants to play that game, he has to train for it. Don’t say you want to run a marathon and not be willing to put in the training and then complain about it.

I also no longer wish to participate in a system of side-door hires that perpetuates discrimination.

I’m a 45 year old Black guy from a small town in the south. Trust me,I’m not part of any “old boys club” by nature of any innate “privilege”.

It's easy to say what others "should" do, but they're not you. They might have different values and priorities that leave them with less flexibility regarding whether to do such interviews

If their priority is to work for companies that require hard whiteboard interviews so they can earn $300K+ instead of being a bog standard Yet another software as a service full stack CRUD senior engineer where they can earn $130K - $160K in many major US cities, don’t complain that they have to put in the work. I’ve had to put in the work to be qualified for the next level after my youngest graduates. I don’t want the travel requirements right now.

[notacoward]

> don’t complain that they have to put in the work

This isn't about whether people are willing to do the work. It's about whether they have to do the same amount of work and whether their performance is measured the same way. If not, that's discrimination. People who want to run a marathon should have to do the work, but they shouldn't have to wear weights on their ankles while others don't.

As I said, it didn't stop me personally. But I know others who also did the work and got the short end of that effort/reward disparity. That doesn't mean they were wrong for trying. Your choices might be right for you or they might be mere "sour grapes" rationalization. I don't know and I don't care, but they can't and shouldn't be projected onto others. Discrimination is discrimination even when it doesn't affect you.

[scarface74]

Say I wanted to be a modern web developer and that I spent 10 years maintaining an old ASP.Net WebForms app. Would it be “discrimination” if I had to spend a year learning the modern $cool_kids stack to be competitive with younger developers who may have learned everything in a boot camp?

Was it “discrimination” that I had to spend six months to be competitive in 2008 after being at the same company for a decade writing VB6 apps and writing programs in C++ with MFC/DCOM?

What about the six months in 1999 I spent playing around with C++/MFC because I spent the first three years of my career writing C and FORTRAN on DEC VAX and Stratus VOS mainframes?

If you want to stay an active software developer you have to always be learning to stay competitive.

[notacoward]

No, those don't sound like discrimination. Discrimination would be if you spent that year learning the material then went into the interview and they gave you a problem that was utterly irrelevant but more familiar to those bootcamp kids. Or if they gave you a relevant problem and you solved it fine using an obvious-seeming algorithm you learned ten years ago, then got "corrected" because everyone uses a different algorithm nowadays. Maybe even an algorithm that's objectively worse for that particular case, but arguing the point would only cost you more points. Those are things I've seen happen.

As I suspect you know, discrimination rarely declares itself. It's usually subtle, sometimes even unconscious, but often it's still there. "I didn't care so I didn't try so I have no direct experience" is not a good argument for dismissing others' choices as inferior or their experiences as insignificant.

[scarface74]

Discrimination would be if you spent that year learning the material then went into the interview and they gave you a problem that was utterly irrelevant but more familiar to those bootcamp kids.

The modern $cool_kids framework would be more familiar to those boot camp kids than it would have been to that hypothetical guy who spent years doing WebForms. Every time I’ve interviewed since 2009 I’ve had to prepare myself beforehand for the types of interviews required for the type of job I wanted. I’m sure half the developers on this board have been targeted by one of the Big tech companies. Everyone knows what to expect at the interviews. The recruiters basically tell you. If I wanted to do the stereotypical r/cscareerquestions “work for a Big N”, I know just how to prepare for it. I have no reason to believe that if I prepared that I wouldn’t be just as competitive. In fact, I would be just as insulted if they gave me a different easier process because of my age because they thought I couldn’t handle a whiteboard interview as I would be if they gave me a different process because of my color if I’m applying for the same job.

Maybe even an algorithm that's objectively worse for that particular case, but arguing the point would only cost you more points. Those are things I've seen happen.

This is life. To paraphrase Buffett, the interview process can stay irrational much longer than I can stay solvent. If you’re an older developer, you should have the wisdom to know which battles you should fight and when you should just play along to reach the ends you want.

As I suspect you know, discrimination rarely declares itself. It's usually subtle, sometimes even unconscious, but it's still there. When evaluating such claims, it's helpful to look at what actually happens to others instead of projecting our own personal experience onto them.

He never said that he studied hard and thought that he was well prepared for the type of interview that he knew they were going to give but hired someone that wasn’t as prepared. If he doesn’t have time to prepare for the interview because of family obligations, that’s no more “discrimination” than me not being able to accept consulting gigs right now because I don’t want to be on the road right now because of family obligations.