[ryanjshaw]

There seems to be an insane amount of misinformation and misunderstanding on this topic. What you and others are describing is not financial engineering. It's corporate raiding, fraud, etc.

I'll list some examples in the field of financial derivatives (speaking here in my personal capacity, not an expert, this is not advice, disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer):

* An oil production company knows they can comfortably operate at a particular price level, P/BBL. They're willing to forego any additional profits provided they can guarantee receiving P/BBL. Commodity swaps make this possible, and it means that people in the industry get to have a reliable job despite the volatility in the market.

* The national airline of a small, poor developing country depends on tourists buying plane tickets in a foreign currency, often months in advance. How can they manage the risk of the exchange rate volatility, when one of their biggest costs are fuel and they have to pay this in yet another foreign currency? Currency derivatives make this possible, and it means this developing country can reliably operate an airline and thereby receive an economic boost from tourism, helping at least some of its citizens make it through another day.

* The CEO of a F500 company knows some bad news is about to hit the market and negatively impact the value of his stock. But he can't sell his shares because he'll be guilty of insider trading. Instead he enters into an equity swap arrangement with some poor sucker who doesn't know about this bad news, and because it's a pre-Dodd Frank Act deal, nobody is the wiser, and our CEO gets to enjoy another stress-free day on the golf course.

As I hope my last tongue-in-cheek example demonstrates, these are just instruments. How they get used and abused is a problem for regulators; they are not inherently evil.

[bumby]

I can appreciate your breakdown and agree with the basic sentiment but the last sentence sounds like a cop-out.

Guns are just tools that poke holes in things. We can't hold the manufacturers responsible for the way they get used.

Fentanyl is just a medical drug. The pharma companies aren't responsible for addiction.

I don't even disagree with your sentiment and I don't necessarily agree or disagree with my silly examples. But I hope you can see why some people would see calling them 'just instruments' can come across as washing ones hands from any responsibility.

[la_barba]

Computers aren't "just tools", you can use them to stalk people online, harass them, hack into computers, etc, etc. Maybe Dell should be checking your mental history, criminal history before selling you a computer too? Just because you can list all the bad things people can do with any object, doesn't give any credence to your argument.

[bumby]

They are "just tools" in the context of the way that term was used in the comment I was responding to.

I'm not sure you were following the point. It was about the culpability of the manufacturer/creator. In your example, it would mean Dell should shoulder some responsibility for somebody misusing their product. The fact is some people think use/trading of certain financial tools should be illegal and that those who caused problems with them should be held responsible. I'm not sure where that line is for financial tools but we already have guardrails in other areas of society to address similar concerns.

[la_barba]

Well, you were the one who said it was a cop-out. Are you not of that opinion any more?

IMO, the culpability of the manufacturer should be zero for general purpose tools. For things like guns/weapons, which were invented solely for killing living things, you can make an argument for regulation...

>The fact is some people think use/trading of certain financial tools should be illegal and that those who caused problems with them should be held responsible.

I don't think its right to base any argument simply on what "some people" think. Why not instead, list the pros and cons of the tool, and what you would change?

[bumby]

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I think you are still missing the point. When I was alluding to them being "just instruments" analogous to the way drugs or guns could be considered "just instruments", it was tongue-in-cheek. Sorry if that didn't come across clearly in text. So yes, my comment is still congruent with thinking of financial derivatives as "just instruments" is a cop-out.

FWIW on your second point, "some" of those people are members of Congress who are meant to represent constituents and draft laws. What you're advocating in listing the pros/cons is a risk based approach, which is the way most decisions, including these, should be framed.

[la_barba]

Fair enough :)