[pwinnski]

I also don't understand how John Waters came to be seen as respectable, but I suppose it might help some people to hear that a lack of respectability, or even acceptance, is not always permanent.

Sometimes it is, but not always.

[mieseratte]

At least among the well-heeled and the culture-class that Waters cites as his markers of acceptance. Should you take his films to a Baptist lock-in you will surely be in trouble.

Widespread acceptability of formerly fringe-lifestyles and a rejection of socially-conservative values ranging from widespread availability of high-grade marijuana to drag-queens showing off their twerking capabilities at public libraries. It's in, it signals you're not "part of the system."

In a way it reminds me of the path that "shock rock" has taken, from Alice Cooper to Marilyn Manson and beyond. There was a good show on the history, I believe "Metal Evolution," which featured an interview with Till Lindemann of Rammstein who remarked, when asked about what he could do to shock at this point, "Suicide on stage." Which I think is a fair statement from a band famous for simulated sodomy on-stage. Perhaps they should try the real thing for sport.

[cgh]

When I was a kid, Metallica was widely seen as completely crazy (this is the Kill 'Em All to Master of Puppets era). "Big kids" who listened to Metallica were vaguely threatening and best avoided. Now even those early thrash monsters are considered to be classic rock. Metallica is eminently respectable.

There is some extreme metal that will never be mainstream or widely listened to but that mainly comes down to the amount of work that's required to listen to it (Deathspell Omega) or the purely misanthropic production quality (Darkthrone's Panzerfaust, an album I adore). This sort of music is "shocking" in the sense that most people assume bands make music because they actually want people to listen to it.

[lb1lf]

Totally different genre, but German industrial/art/whatever band Einstürzende Neubauten has a song titled 'Hör mit Schmerzen' (Listen with/in pain) - which, as far as titles go, is pretty descriptive.

(I love the Neubauten, by the way - but I will admit to preferring their output from Zeichnungen des Patienten O.T. onwards - where at least fragments of melody can be heard... The debut Kollaps is... Well, challenging.)

[joncrane]

Being respectable means finding a kernel of truth (that isn't necessarily widely known) and working diligently to clear the way for it to come out.

Hard work and devotion to a cause is, in itself, respectable. Having the courage to stick with something even when it was unpopular is respectable.

Heck even Terry A. Davis, late creator of TempleOS, gets some grudging respect on here.

[tictoc]

Wow. Didn't know Terry Davis died. Has anyone used TempleOS? What is it like?