[SkyMarshal]

I always wondered why they couldn’t have just used the F-22 for both the air superiority role it was originally designed for and the multi-purpose role the F-35 was made for. The F-22 is more capable in every way, and more survivable with dual engines. They would have needed to figure out vertical take-off/landing version of the F-22 but I’m sure that was not impossible.

It may have looked more expensive on paper with ideal assumptions to produce lots of expensive F-22s instead of a few F-22’s and lots of cheaper JSFs. But in practice I bet the costs would have equalized, due to the increased volume of F-22s and the development of extensive institutional knowledge of that airframe - from manufacturing to maintenance to piloting/operating.

[jki275]

The F22 was designed in the 80s. It's old. It's fast, certainly the best in some aerodynamic ways, but nothing like the capability the JSF brings in computing technology.

In addition, the threats anticipated that led to its development never materialized.

That's why it was cancelled.

[ohaideredevs]

>but nothing like the capability the JSF brings in computing technology.

What computing technology can't be put into the F-22? Iirc it has a much bigger radar housing, and EO DAS (fancy term for 360 IR / situational awareness) can be added to it.

To answer the parent term - the F-22 was used for air-to-ground in the middle east, so it can definitely fill that role. There was also an attack plane/bomber variant proposed.

With that said, I don't think "its old" holds.

[jki275]

JSF has sensors built into its skin. You don’t just retrofit sensors onto an LO platform.

Retrofitting new computing technology into an aircraft is a huge deal. Just getting a data link into it so it can talk to the rest of the DOD has taken over a decade and I’m not sure it’s even complete yet.

Yes, it’s old. That doesn’t mean it’s not useful, the F15 is far older and still in use and will be for decades, but it was more cost effective to put the money into the new platform instead.

[ohaideredevs]

I don't mean to get into the weeds here, but what part of EODAS can't be added by literally putting a thermal camera (from the F-35 program) in several places on the F-22 and running wiring to it?

I completely understand that it interfaces with the helmet. I also know that it took ages for the F-22 to get a simple FLIR built in, but if even a fraction of the F-35 resources were directed at the F-22, this would all be more than doable quickly.

As far as I am concerned, the selling pitch of the F-35 is the STOVL and EODAS. At that point the F-22 could be fitted for carrier operations, because no one uses VTOL (or plans to) on the F-35 anyway except for moving it around parking lots with no ordinance.

Again, this is ignoring all the political info.

Also, to get more specific, I don't know of any "sensors built into its skin" - EODAS is just a bunch of little pods with thermal cameras and fancy computing. Obviously don't tell me if it's something that's not public knowledge.

[jki275]

No.

The main function of the JSF is situational awareness. The F22 doesn't even have a functional data link yet. JSF has all of it built in from the beginning. Everything you add to an airframe costs millions of dollars, and there's no point in doing it.

STOVL is an important part of the JSF program. The F22 isn't capable of doing STOVL or carrier operations, you don't refit a non-CVN capable aircraft for carrier operations.

[p_l]

F-22 has datalinks, including the one datalink that appears to be ultimately the only one really used - Link-16.

F-35's MADL wasn't added to F-22 because Air Force deemed it "not ready to use" and cited maturity problems with the whole stack.

A lot of JSF sensors are to patch over its horrible pilot situational awareness, mostly a legacy of the STOVL variant (which is responsible for most issues) and which exists only because USMC needs it to fight against Imperial Japanese Army in Guadalcanal. Few other purchases of F-35B happened because building a proper carrier would result in political shitstorm (Japan) or because F-35B being supposed to let build carrier more cheaply and when its issues became known it was too late to refit the carrier with catapult (UK).

As for refitting a non-carrier aircraft to be a carrier aircaft - F-18 is the best known case, and its competitor was navalized F-16. As far as I know, there was carrier variant of F-22 in the works as well.

[burfog]

STOVL can certainly be retrofitted the same way lots of things are: as an external pod.

Guide the pilot into a suitable position above the landing area. (with visual indicators, much like those for a bombing run) Once the plane is in the right spot, a computer finishes the job with full automation. The aircraft is stalled. The pods fire rockets. The aircraft is guided down and brought to a stop.

This retrofit would be particularly sensible for the F-15, which normally carries conformal fuel tanks. That would be a fine place to install the retrofit.

[ohaideredevs]

Oh, the other argument for the JSF is that it could be exported to allies, whereas the F-22 is US-only.