[beatgammit]

I thought paper was just as bad, if not worse, because it takes more energy to produce. [Here's a random site about it[1], though please note that I've done pretty much nothing to vet the information.

I reuse plastic bags (garbage, traveling w/ liquids, picnics), and if I have a bunch of extras, I take them to the grocery store, where they have a recycling bin for them. I don't know if they actually get recycled (I read that they often end up in the landfill regardless), but there's a chance. I rarely get too many though because most of my shopping is at Costco, which doesn't provide them.

I disagree that a ban here is necessary or useful. I use them quite a bit, so at least for me, I'll be producing "more" waste because I'll need to buy new bags instead. Paper bags aren't as useful (can't hold liquids, are more rigid, break easily), and I always seem to forget my reusable bags.

I wish more stores would follow Costco's lead and reuse those cardboard trays, which are just as useful for carrying groceries to/from the car and are obviously recyclable and biodegradable. Honestly, I prefer them most of the time because they keep things from rolling around, I can carry more in one trip to the house, and it's easier to see where certain things are for organizing later.

What we need isn't a plastic bag ban, but maybe a tax on them based on the cost of cleaning up discarded plastic bags. It costs $0.05-0.15/bag to buy small garbage bags (bathrooms, office, etc), so the tax shouldn't be more than that. Charging for plastic bags seems to work[2], so why not just do that instead of a ban? Those of us who find value in these bags can continue to use them (I love them for dirty diapers, rotten food, and other stuff that shouldn't hang around the house for days), while those who don't can use other bags.

[1] http://www.allaboutbags.ca/papervplastic.html [2] https://neweconomics.org/2016/09/why-the-plastic-bag-charge-...

[iguy]

I believe the big problem is cleanup, not production. "They end up clogging city drains and sewers" is the key here -- a mix of plastic bags & dirt is much more effective at blocking drains than just dirt. And this matters a lot in cities with monsoon rains & terrible garbage collection. (Even before you mention downstream effects, like bags in the ocean.)

In city with excellent garbage collection, plastic bags used once and then (say) incinerated in the city heat plant may well be better than paper. Although as you say re-using cardboard boxes is always a great idea too.

[abdullahkhalids]

This is the correct answer. In Pakistan, poor people will also often burn garbage, including plastic bags - which releases toxic byproducts. Ensuring that plastic bags are all collected and properly disposed off is difficult, banning them is easier.

[sitharus]

Plastic bags are _short term_ less costly to produce, but unlike paper they do not readily degrade in the environment and produce long term environmental damage. They're not the only or largest proportion of plastic pollution, but you move a mountain one stone at a time.

Reusable bags are a habit thing. Once you're in the habit of taking bags with you it's much easier, but is a right pain until then.

I do agree a minimum price might be better, at least that would make medium-term degradable bags (corn starch etc) more readily used as they're currently out priced by non-degradable plastics. However sometimes the outright ban gets things moving faster.

For reference plastic bags have been banned where I live for two months now. I don't miss them.

[skybrian]

Environmental damage depends on them getting into the environment. If they're properly disposed I don't see the harm?

[standardUser]

The problem is that there is no "proper" way to dispose of plastics. That's why plastics have become such a problem. They simply accumulate in the environment.

[magduf]

You can say that about anything. If things are "properly" disposed of, they go in the landfill. Decomposition isn't an issue, because stuff doesn't really decompose that much in landfills: they've dug up old landfills and found newspapers perfectly intact from the early 20th century. The main problem with plastic bags is what happens when they aren't disposed of properly. Paper bag litter will decompose fairly quickly, but plastic bags don't. The corn starch ones are a lot better, and have been around for decades now, so I'm not sure why those aren't required everywhere that still uses plastic bags, because they would ameliorate the problem significantly.

[skybrian]

That's not true. Landfills are quite effective at keeping stuff out of the environment. We have the technology.

[esotericn]

The energy use of producing bags is essentially irrelevant.

By contrast, plastic is basically proving itself a global poison at this point, whereas paper decomposes easily.

[mikestew]

I always seem to forget my reusable bags.

Me, too, and the only reason it is an issue is because you and I grew up with stores that would provide you all the bags you need (and in fact would have stared at you oddly had you brought your own bags). Think you’d forget if no grocery store had ever given you a bag?

Time for you and I to both develop some new habits. I started by always keeping bags in the car; if I forget, I just have to walk back across the car park. Hell, I’ve taken to keeping a bag in my backpack should need to make a purchase on the electric push scooter.

[esotericn]

Exactly.

This is like 'forgetting' your credit card at the shop, or 'forgetting' your car keys when you head outside the shop.

You bring your reusable bag or backpack or whatever or you can barely carry anything. Sorted.

[magduf]

>and I always seem to forget my reusable bags.

The key here is to make a habit of keeping your reusable bags in your car's trunk so they're always there when you need them. Then if you forget to bring them in with you, punish yourself by going back out to the car to get them; after doing that a couple of times, you'll remember when you park to get your bags and bring them in with you.

>Those of us who find value in these bags can continue to use them

They are actually pretty useful for many small things. I use them for lining my bathroom's tiny little trash can, for keeping food waste in my fridge until I throw it out (you can't put avocado pits in the garbage disposal, and if you throw them in the main trash they attract insects), and I also keep a couple in my backpack just in case I need an extra bag for carrying things.

[astrodust]

Is there a giant swirling mass of paper bags in the Pacific Ocean?

Do paper bags hang from trees and phone lines for years?

Do paper bags cause enormous damage from clogging up sewers and sewage processing plants?

They don't.

[magduf]

>Is there a giant swirling mass of paper bags in the Pacific Ocean?

I'm quite sure there's no giant swirling mass of plastic bags in the Pacific Ocean.

Sure, there's a huge amount of plastic pollution there in gyres, but it's not from people using plastic bags at the grocery store in middle America. It's from stuff like shipping containers blown overboard, and various other trash that has gotten into waterways.

Your other points are sound I think, but not this one. If you want to complain about the gyres, then you need to take aim at ALL plastics and discuss banning them ALL. That'll basically set our technology back to the early 1900s or so.

[astrodust]

The problem is if a plastic bag ends up in the ocean it never really breaks down or degrades. Turtles tend to eat them since they look like jellyfish, and this causes enormous knock-on problems when turtles start dying from eating too much plastic.

Turtles could eat paper bags all day and probably be fine.

They may not be the #1 contributor to the Pacific Garbage Patch, but they're a component of it.

[magduf]

My point is that plastic bags from most places in America are not winding up in the ocean. They sure as hell aren't getting to the ocean from people in Kansas being sloppy with plastic bag disposal. There's a lot of problems with plastics in the oceans, and I have a hard time believing that plastic grocery bags are one of the major contributors.

But as I said somewhere else in this discussion, I think all these grocery bags should be made of the corn starch plastic that breaks down quickly, and I'd like to know what those weren't mandated since they've been around for at least 20 years now.

[astrodust]

Canada just got on with a ban on single-use plastic items (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-to-ban-single-us...) which presumably includes plastic bags.

Single use non-plastic items made of other materials like corn starch would be interesting, but they're going to have to be sure to not brand them as "plastic".