[nesadi]

All this talk about "toxic masculinity" tells me that there's something fundamentally wrong about the whole conversation. Because nobody wants to define what masculinity, healthy masculinity, is supposed to look like in all aspects of life and, most importantly, how it relates to sexuality in general and sexuality with women. I just get the sense that masculinity as a whole is supposed to be toxic.

[lazyasciiart]

Nobody in this conversation has done so, because nobody in this conversation is attempting to present a complete explanation of the world. Try a very quick search before saying "nobody wants to x". https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/masculinity-healthy...

[mattlutze]

Healthy masculinity could be inferred as the opposite of "toxic masculinity", which I do offer a general description of above.

[justinjlynn]

Indeed. In my opinion, the term is less than ideal because it conflates a complex mixture of awful beliefs and actions - misogyny, internalised misandry, and misandry; and their results in the behaviours of those who hold them.

At the heart of it, my issue with the term is that it places the emphasis on those exhibiting the syndrome, and their need to simply "just stop doing it" as though it were driven by nothing other than personal choice - no matter the personal cost of opposing it, instead of on how we, as a society, can work on eliminating the underlying causes of it. It's clear that the beliefs and behaviours which make up toxic masculinity have to stop - it's better if they never seem to masculine people like the beliefs and/or behaviours are expected in the first place.

I contend that, by placing the focus on the behaviour and not the underlying causes, usage of the term misdirects the efforts those who want to change society to eliminate those behaviours. Worse, it does so in a way which fails to effectively highlight all of their sources and misleads those who don't identify as masculine into thinking they have no way to help or are powerless. This is the opposite of what we as a society want to do. Everyone has power and a role to play in ending toxic masculinity - it's not just people who identify as masculine who need to examine how they contribute to toxic behaviour by masculine individuals; we all do.

We already have words which adequately express the behaviour's underlying causes - sexism and its internalised variants, and we should use them so that we can target our actions and descern our responsibilities in how we can make society better for everyone.

However, I have little hope for this kind of direct language and issue tackling, given the climate of the popular discussion in these regards. It really does require everyone keep watch on how they interact with and treat others, and what messages they might be sending. That's hard work but it's worth it, especially if people can just be people without having to take censure for being themselves, however they decide that should be - especially if it's not harming anyone else.