[lern_too_spel]

Indeed. Facebook does this. It deanonymizes Facebook news feed visitors to every third party whose links appear on their news feed. You consider this a better approach? In addition to losing in privacy, it loses in speed because it doesn't prerender the page, and it doesn't know enough to load just the resources needed to render above the fold.

[manigandham]

I don't consider either necessary. Clicking a link and then loading the page works just fine for the web.

Creating a custom HTML fork that puts more pressure on limited publisher dev teams to end up with another copy o the site (and now SSR) is a worse approach than placing loading speed into search results ranking and letting sites optimize the site for everyone with a browser.

[lern_too_spel]

> Clicking a link and then loading the page works just fine for the web.

No, it doesn't. If it did, there would be no need for Facebook Instant Articles, Apple News, or their successor, AMP.

> Creating a custom HTML fork that puts more pressure on limited publisher dev teams to end up with another copy o the site

They're already doing this with Facebook Instant Articles and Apple News. Imagine if they had to do separate integrations with Bing, Google, Yahoo! Japan, Baidu, and any future link aggregators. AMP lets them publish one page and support all of them.

[manigandham]

No, none of this is needed. Make speed a factor in search results and sites get faster. The single HTML version will get faster for everyone on every device, not just mobile sites from certain platforms.

Facebook IA and Apple News are also attempts to control ads and data, just like AMP. They're all bad for publishers. IA and AN have both failed in providing anywhere near the benefits and revenue they promised. AMP only survives because it's compatible with existing ads served by Google's ad network and given higher placement in their search results.

It's rather amazing how Google is specifically offering the solution to a problem caused by their own adtech software.

[lern_too_spel]

> No, none of this is needed. Make speed a factor in search results and sites get faster.

You can't get faster than prerendered, which is what Apple News and Facebook Instant Articles offer, which AMP is the open alternative to.

> AMP only survives because it's compatible with existing ads served by Google's ad network and given higher placement in their search results.

If that's the case, why does Bing use it?

> It's rather amazing how Google is specifically offering the solution to a problem caused by their own adtech software.

What's rather amazing is that after having repeatedly heard the problem that AMP solves (instant loading pages), you continue to straw man what it solves and what technologies it competes with.

> Facebook IA and Apple News are also attempts to control ads and data, just like AMP. They're all bad for publishers.

Yet only AMP gets the rabid hate. Why is that? AMP is essentially RSS items with support for above the fold prerendering, interactivity, and monetization. You probably love RSS, even though it is even worse for publishers. Why?

[manigandham]

It doesn't matter if it's prerendered, as long as it's fast enough, and fast HTML sites are fast enough. If AMP was so good then this entire SSR wouldn't even be necessary in the first place, let alone all the complaints about user experience and data.

You also seem to argue that because Facebook Instant Article and Apple News exist, AMP must also compete. I'm saying none of them are needed and creating yet another standard to push onto publishers because others have done it is poor justification. It's more work for no gain. Google already has vast control over UX by using search results, the very same search results it currently uses to pressure sites to implement AMP.

If Google wants to, it can force speed standards that change the majority of websites overnight. It can implement rules and restrictions in its adserver that change the majority of ads overnight. It can optimize Google analytics that change the majority of tracking overnight. It can do all of this if the intentions were pure, but it doesn't, because the only intentions are more control over publishers and data.

Facebook doesn't pressure IA and normal links work just fine. Apple News is new inventory and doesn't take away from Safari or the web. And RSS is completely irrelevant and nothing more than a feed of updates where pubs can share as much or as little as they want.

[lern_too_spel]

> It doesn't matter if it's prerendered, as long as it's fast enough, and fast HTML sites are fast enough.

If that were true, Bing et al would not spend resources maintaining AMP caches. It's clearly not true.

> If AMP was so good then this entire SSR wouldn't even be necessary

This just shows that you don't know what AMP does. It allows prerendering from the link aggregator, and it does this well enough that every competent search engine implements it. The problem this solves is that people share AMP links directly, which can't be prerendered because they aren't loaded until someone puts the link in the location bar. In this case, it is slower than plain HTML, but this isn't the case AMP is meant to solve. By using SSR, they can make it faster than most plain HTML and just slightly slower than hand-optimized HTML with above the fold optimizations.

> You also seem to argue that because Facebook Instant Article and Apple News exist, AMP must also compete. I'm saying none of them are needed and creating yet another standard to push onto publishers because others have done it is poor justification.

The publishers use it, and as we demonstrated above with Bing's A/B testing, the users want it. What more justification do you need?

> If Google wants to, it can force speed standards that change the majority of websites overnight. It can implement rules and restrictions in its adserver that change the majority of ads overnight. It can optimize Google analytics that change the majority of tracking overnight.

Who says they don't? None of those solve the problem that AMP solves, which is instant loading of pages .

> Facebook doesn't pressure IA and normal links work just fine. Apple News is new inventory and doesn't take away from Safari or the web.

It's the same with the search engines and AMP.

> And RSS is completely irrelevant and nothing more than a feed of updates where pubs can share as much or as little as they want.

So what you're saying is that RSS is exactly like AMP, where pubs can share as much or as little as they want.

[dmitriid]

> which AMP is the open alternative to.

It's not an open alternative. All decisions on what AMP should look like and what it supports are done by Google behind closed doors. See, for example, AMP 4 Email [1]

The only reason AMP exists is because Google needed its own way to control content. That is it.

> If that's the case, why does Bing use it?

Because you're forced to compete against the behemoth on the behemoth's terms.

> What's rather amazing is that after having repeatedly heard the problem that AMP solves (instant loading pages)

AMP's problems are well documented. You chose to ignore all of them and go for "instant loading pages".

> Yet only AMP gets the rabid hate. Why is that?

Because it reaches a wider audience and Google has the gall to call it "open" and "good for the web". It's neither.

> AMP is essentially RSS items

It is not like RSS in any way, shape, or form.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16455593

[lern_too_spel]

> It's not an open alternative. All decisions on what AMP should look like and what it supports are done by Google behind closed doors. See, for example, AMP 4 Email [1]

Your examples predate https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.amp.dev/2018/11/30/amp-pro... and no longer seem to apply.

> The only reason AMP exists is because Google needed its own way to control content.

That's nonsensical. Why then does Bing use it?

> Because you're forced to compete against the behemoth on the behemoth's terms.

Why are they forced to use it? I would really like to see your position stated coherently.

> AMP's problems are well documented.

How do you propose to achieve instant loading web pages, while working around all of iOS's bugs?

> It is not like RSS in any way, shape, or form.

This just demonstrates that you don't understand AMP, don't understand RSS, or don't understand both. AMP allows the link aggregator to cache and directly serve the article contents, exactly like RSS does.