[codingvelocity]

Cows out to pasture likely have a good life, but I wouldn't say feedlots are especially kind. They are fairly crowded with little to no green space.

I do agree with the rest of your statements though. Beef farming is far kinder then any poultry farming

[JoeAltmaier]

Hm relatively similar? A chicken has the awareness of a bug. Conditions for a higher mammal vs a chicken might reasonably be very different for the same level of stress.

[codingvelocity]

I strongly disagree. We treat chickens quite poor. Laying hens for example, we throw most male chicks into a shredder because they can't produce eggs. That's beyond cruel regardless of their mental capacity. Another example. Chicken debeaking is a practice used to prevent chickens self mutilating or destroying their eggs or each other.

[ksaj]

> we throw most male chicks into a shredder because they can't produce eggs

They also fight viciously amongst each other. You can only have up to a specific ratio of males and females if you want to avoid outright carnage.

Most debeaking is just taking the point off the top of the beak. This is so when they peck, it simultaneously jolts their jaw. They learn to stop doing that, and every time they try, they get that jab reminder. The amount removed isn't even deep enough to hit any nerves.

Maybe some farmers overdo it, but I haven't witnessed that around any farms I've been to.

[inflatableDodo]

>A chicken has the awareness of a bug.

You must know some smart bugs. Birds tend to be surprisingly bright for their brain capacity.

"Research has shown that chickens have some sense of numbers. Experiments with newly hatched domestic chicks showed they can discriminate between quantities. They also have an idea about ordinality, which refers to the ability to place quantities in a series. Five-day-old domestic chicks presented with two sets of objects of different quantities disappearing behind two screens were able to successfully track which one hid the larger number by apparently performing simple arithmetic in the form of addition and subtraction.

Chickens are also able to remember the trajectory of a hidden ball for up to 180 seconds if they see the ball moving and up to one minute if the displacement of the ball is invisible to them. Their performance is similar to that of most primates under similar conditions.

The birds possess self-control when it comes to holding out for a better food reward. They are able to self-assess their position in the pecking order. These two characteristics are indicative of self-awareness.

Chicken communication is also quite complex, and consists of a large repertoire of different visual displays and at least 24 distinct vocalizations. The birds possess the complex ability of referential communication, which involves signals such as calls, displays and whistles to convey information. They may use this to sound the alarm when there is danger, for instance. This ability requires some level of self-awareness and being able to take the perspective of another animal, and is also possessed by highly intelligent and social species, including primates.

Chickens perceive time intervals and can anticipate future events. Like many other animals, they demonstrate their cognitive complexity when placed in social situations requiring them to solve problems.

The birds are able to experience a range of complex negative and positive emotions, including fear, anticipation and anxiety. They make decisions based on what is best for them. They also possess a simple form of empathy called emotional contagion. Not only do individual chickens have distinct personalities, but mother hens also show a range of individual maternal personality traits which appear to affect the behavior of their chicks. The birds can deceive one another, and they watch and learn from each other."

https://www.springer.com/gp/about-springer/media/research-ne...

[Gh0stRAT]

Not the OP, and I disagree with their assertion that chickens and bugs are of similar intelligence, but there ARE some very intelligent spiders. (which I know aren't technically "bugs")

>Besides having the capacity to make plans, act on the basis of object permanence, represent specific goals and solve novel problems, Portia often has to confront more than one other spider at the same time. [0]

>Our findings suggest that Portia represents 1 and 2 as discrete number categories, but categorizes 3 or more as a single category that we call ‘many’. [1]

We seem to naturally have a strong tendency to disregard the intelligence and emotional lives of animals. (which if you think about it, was probably strongly selected for at some point in the past)

[0] https://royalsociety.org.nz/news/jumping-spiders-can-count-1...

[1] https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsfs.201...

[Ididntdothis]

“We seem to naturally have a strong tendency to disregard the intelligence and emotional lives of animals. “

It makes ethics much simpler if you deny that an animal can suffer.

To a degree this also happens on conflicts between humans. It’s much easier to kill others if you deny that they may have reasons for doing what they are doing but instead just call them mindless fanatics that can’t be helped.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

I think the OP's comment is just right. Some "bugs" (spiders are "bugs" but they are not insects) have surprisingly complex behavior, and chickens can be surprisingly stupid for animals with actual brains. For instance, they will stay in their coop and drown in a flood, even if they can easily jump over its fence to evade you in other times. It's really incomprehensible.

[JoeAltmaier]

Sure, I was speaking hyperbole. But the differences between chicken awareness and higher mammals is profound. Blurring that is just anthropomorphizing chickens.

[inflatableDodo]

The critique of anthropomorphisis, doesn't really make a hell of a lot of sense, if you are comparing chickens and higher mammal's relative awareness. And what about it being blurry don't you like? I mean, it is a bit blurry if you start looking for a very smart chicken and a particularly stupid monkey.

[orwin]

>A chicken has the awareness of a bug I this true? I thought that all birds were highly intelligents. Although they don't have any pack instinct, chicken still have a peck order, that mean that they recognize individuality. Thus they probably have a sense of self. If consiousness is an illusion created by senses, they probably have a conscience too then.

[Ididntdothis]

Have you ever dealt with chickens? They have much more awareness than bugs. It’s not even close.

[JoeAltmaier]

All my young life. They have very marginal responses to their environment. They see a threat, they respond. They turn their backs on the threat, seconds later they are back to pecking at the dirt.

[Ididntdothis]

I spent a lot of time with chickens when I was a kid. The ones I dealt with had quite distinct personalities, some were friendly, some fearful, some brave and they also seemed to respond to stress. Obviously they are different from humans but I thought they had quite a range of behaviors.

[lostlogin]

I don’t know much about chickens but look after some bees. The awareness and organisation of a colony is striking. The bar is perhaps a little higher than the OP intended it to be.

[JoeAltmaier]

Isn't that anthropomorphizing right there? Maybe more correct to say "The evolved stimulus reactions in individuals resulting in complex group behaviors is striking"?

Bees are a great example of mindless creatures with no awareness. They die a horrible death when they sting someone (their internal organs ripped out of their bodies with the stinger) with no obvious awareness of what they're doing.

[Ididntdothis]

That’s a good point. I often think it would be helpful to view any colonies or bee hives as a living being because they certainly behave like one.

However I am pretty sure that a single chicken has more awareness than a single bee or ant.