[gekkeboom]

I don't think that life in and of itself is valuable even under terrible conditions. Especially if there is no positive outlook, that things will be better, no reason to hang on.

I think only one thing really matters: QUALITY of life.

Life is not intrinsically sacred. QUALITY of life is to me.

[scotty79]

My belief is that since there's nothing except for life, life of any quality is infinitely better than no life.

However this belief of mine is currentlly being viscerally challenged.

[close04]

> life of any quality is infinitely better than no life

From someone who's been on the other side of the story (albeit nowhere close in severity) I can tell you that this is a philosophical debate that you might have with yourself for years and not really reach a solid and stable conclusion. Because it will change depending on your state. Like promising never to drink again during the worst drunkenness or hangover.

On one hand that low quality of life may be the worst thing you ever experienced and there's the distinct risk of going even lower. On the other hand we have no idea what lies on the other side - nothing or something that may be better or worse. And of course there's always the sliver of hope that all goes well and giving up on life too soon is a waste.

[scotty79]

> not really reach a solid and stable conclusion. Because it will change depending on your state.

I can clearly see with myself how my mood affects my train of thought. And how my mood comes from the state of my body. I think I can stay grounded pretty well even when my mind is in terrible physical condition and goes to the darkest places as a result of that. I can somewhat filter out the influence of mood on my thinking.

> On the other hand we have no idea what lies on the other side - nothing or something that may be better or worse.

We can be pretty sure that there's no other side. All of neuroscience, medicine, biology and what we know about neural networks point to it being that way. The only thing that points to there being some other side is uneducated* people's fantasies and wishful thinking.

* (at least in neuroscience and medicine)

[close04]

> I think I can stay grounded pretty well even when my mind is in terrible physical condition

Perhaps it's just like torture, given enough time and suffering things change. Every person has a breaking point. I can't imagine anyone taking torture as "keep doing it because it's still better than dying".

> We can be pretty sure that there's no other side.

Pretty sure. I'm not a spiritual person so this isn't about religion. I was just being thorough so until I get to see nothing on the other side I will at least give the option a passing mention.

And I don't think your mind hangs on to life just because once it's over there's only nothingness. The human mind probably can't even conceive what "nothing" means. You might hang on for more "practical" reasons, like "I spent years building this life, I can't waste it especially if there's a slim chance it gets better".

[PyroLagus]

I imagine a year in solitary confinement (how is solitary even legal still?) would likely change your mind. I'd say no life is better than a life of torture, and taking "life of any quality is infinitely better than no life" to the extreme, would mean that hell with eternal constant torture would be better than not existing, which I can't agree with nor understand. I'm glad that you have such a positive outlook on life, but I doubt that you could maintain it in the face of a long torturous experience, few can.

[scotty79]

People spend whole lives in prison and they still don't want to die. Very small number of people with healthy brains (undamaged by depression for example) kill themselves intentionally even though it's not that hard. Life is very fragile. Somehow even in this world filled with suffering practical calculation lands for almost all people on the side of "let's not end this just yet".

You can ponder eternal torture and not existing but I'm talking about more down to earth thing. Your single life. You will never have anything besides it. It's not eternal torture, it's not even all torture. It is everything you own and the only thing you own. How could you give up any future piece of it that you didn't have to?

[crankylinuxuser]

Is there a living will? What is their wishes, either written or verbally spoken?

In cases where we have to make hard decisions like this, I find some solace that they have made their decisions ahead of time so that we only complete their requests.

I don't envy you at all in this. The same thing happened to my dad, except the life-saving measures failed, and the doctors said there was nothing else they could do. They gave my mom an 'out', since it was not her choice.

[scotty79]

No will, no specific wishes, except for 'be healthy' and 'if not possible, die on the operating table'. No way to obtain them now. Even so they'd make no difference. Ending life is prohibited by both law and religion of the land. Any attempt to do less than possible to keep her alive would be illegal and religiously immoral. We just have to wait till life-saving measures will fail.

[mlcrypto]

That can be disproven easily. Imagine a life in a constant state of pain and torture

To me this proves there exists a threshold at which no life is better

[scotty79]

As a theoretical scenario you are right but brain is very flexible. If all you know is pain wouldn't you just get used to it and still didn't want to die because as I said, there's nothing else for you?

[technothrasher]

I can respect both positions. I understand completely why people want to hang on to life no matter what, and I also completely understand wanting to be done with a life that offers nothing but pain.

This is why it's desperately important to be honest with your loved ones about what your wishes are, and to respect and help them with theirs.

Personally, I want to live now, and I suspect from watching other people at the end of life, I'll know when I'm ready to go.

[lifesahack]

Depression gives you a negative outlook, regardless of how good your quality of life is. An irrational thought loop that whispers to you (or screams at you) that things will not get better. It's easy to conflate negative thoughts into reality.

If you do find a way out, the idea that life itself is sacred (regardless of quality of life) can help keep things in perspective for next time.

[scotty79]

I deeply believe that depression is just physical brain damage and dark thoughts are just the symptom making harder for you to get treatment just like a pain in the knee might make it harder for you exercise it a bit or get to the doctor to get treatment. I don't think that dark thoughts by themselves cause depression or even directly contribute to it. Same way the feeling of pain doesn't make your knee worse.

I think it might be helpful to have distance to your feelings. To understand that unlike your thoughts, your feelings have direct purely biological source. You might find it easier to suffer through them, like you can suffer through limping.

I hope I'll never get depressed so I won't have to find out whether that makes any difference.

[lifesahack]

Depression is a negative thought loop that in the moment feels impossible to escape. Irrational thoughts seem rational. In a clinical sense depression (as a disorder) may be the cause. It persists even when your quality of life is good. That said, depression can also be an effect (triggered by a traumatic experience).

Distancing yourself from your feelings may help temporarily, drugs do that.

Occupying your mind with activities that provide a positive reward loop and positive feeling (hobbies, exercise, social activities) likely makes the most difference.