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by sodosopa 2515 days ago
They’ve shared fingerprint data as soon as AFIS went online in 84. This is an advancement of the same process.

How many innocent people are caught with fingerprint data?

4 comments

Considering fingerprint analysis is pseudoscience and almost entirely made up (along with most other "forensic science") [1] [2] we can assume LOTS AND LOTS of innocent people are caught with "fingerprint data"

[1] http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?rec...

[2] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/12589/strengthening-forensic-sci...

>"There is some evidence that fingerprints are unique to each person, and it is plausible that careful analysis could accurately discern whether two prints have a common source, the report says. However, claims that these analyses have zero-error rates are not plausible; uniqueness does not guarantee that two individuals' prints are always sufficiently different that they could not be confused, for example. Studies should accumulate data on how much a person's fingerprints vary from impression to impression, as well as the degree to which fingerprints vary across a population. With this kind of research, examiners could begin to attach confidence limits to conclusions about whether a print is linked to a particular person."

However, claims that these analyses have zero-error rates are not plausible

That's an odd criticism since nothing has a zero error rate.

DNA analysis has a non-zero error rate and we routinely rely on it.

>Considering fingerprint analysis is pseudoscience and almost entirely made up

Quite the stretch to go from "non-zero-error rates" to "made up pseudoscience" isn't it?

It's a problem if people are being convicted on fingerprint analysis alone. But as a piece of the puzzle, when combined with other evidence, what is the issue?

I would still want to look at the rate. Is it 1 of 10 or 1 in a million? At what number are we comfortable for our safety?
How would you know? If an innocent person is convicted, then they’re assumed to be guilty.
Or even more common, a plea bargain recommended by their public defender.
Basic facial structure (the kind that can be captured from CCTV) is an order of magnitudes less unique than fingerprint data.
If that data can lead to suspects that's a start. Then you have 4 suspects to put a subpoena to google for tracking data. Go from there.
Great! So now the police can go through my personal information because I happen to look slightly like a criminal from a certain angle.
and you don't come to the attention of the police by being innocent so it's safe to assume you're guilty and watch the evidence appear. And this is why the advice is to say nothing whatsoever to police. Don't help them get the falsehoods out of their case anywhere but in front of a judge in a court. And the police may not be bad people or involved in organised crime.

All this tech makes a turnkey police state right there waiting. Who is going to turn that key before we dismantle it? Think of the children.

How would it be any different than if they showed a witness your mug shot and the witness said "yup, that's him!".
Automation and scale
Does that apply in general?

In the past, if a license plate was noted, you’d have to manually go through records. Now through automation and scale it’s instant. Should that be prohibited too?

The tech will improve. Fingerprint data from cards use to be high tech.

Also the William & Will West case was an older example of misidentifying by photography. Modern tech has improved dramatically and will get more and more precise. Why apply early 2000’s tech issues to the advancements made in the past 15-20 years?

Lie detectors are woefully unreliable, but PDs use them.

Forensic “matching” of bullets to guns is basically pseudoscience, but continues to be used in court to convict people.

Roadside drug analysis kits are less useful than dowsing rods, but get people arrested on a daily basis. People that can’t afford bail, and plead guilty just to get back to their lives, despite the fact that an actual defense attorney would have had the case tossed in the trash.

Previous experience suggests that police tech does not just “get better.” They can’t even progress past “disproven pseudoscience.” And the innocent people that have their lives messed with while waiting for the tech to catch up might not be indifferent to the process.

I’ve never heard of ballistics being pseudoscience. Not that I don’t believe it, but where can I read about that?
I have heard of it being bunkum, but not quite of the same ~caliber~ as fiber matching and bite-mark matching.

It can, at best, match ammo from the same machine-manufactured batch to a factory-stock model of gun. It automatically fails on hand-load cartridges, or ammo that the analyst cannot readily source.

When there is a match, the prosecutor might say "this bullet was fired from this gun", but the science says "a bullet similar to the one in evidence was marked and deformed in a similar fashion, when fired by the weapon in evidence (just as it would with every other factory-stock copy of this model of gun)".

It's like matching a nail to the hammer that drove it. If the test nail is already different from the reference nail, you cannot match it. If you have two or more identical hammers, you can't tell which one drove the nail. The hammer factory made thousands of identical hammers.

In most cases, the tests are likely saying "the most commonly sold type of ammunition was fired from the most popular model of gun of that caliber". It's the sort of thing that should probably be used exclusively as exculpatory evidence. I.e. this model of gun always leaves distinctive markings, such as from an off-center diamond-shaped firing pin, or from an uncommon rifling twist, that were not found on the bullets in evidence, so the gun in evidence could not have fired them. Otherwise, a gun substantially similar, with all the same machine-made parts, could leave the same marks, so you could never know for sure which one fired the bullets.

The only time it would be useful to convict is if someone used a unique, hand-made, gunsmithed gun to fire factory-made ammunition. And the number of (violent) crimes committed with that type of display-piece gun approaches zero, because they tend to be both expensive and less fit for use as a weapon than cheaper factory-built guns.

Maybe it will get better at some point in the future but the systems available and in use today have a very alarmingly high false positive rate.

https://news.sky.com/story/met-polices-facial-recognition-te...

The same things were probably said when they rolled out the polygraph machine, and that's still notoriously ineffective.
It should not be massively adopted and utilized, for real arrests with real people, on the basis that "the tech will improve".
Every single one of "most advanced face auth technologies" have been hacked within weeks at most, including Apple's faceid.
When was Face ID hacked?
It wasn’t; It was tricked. But it required a 3D model of a face with a lot of effort put in. Though that’s probably what GP meant
Searching for your exact question indicates it does happen.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27233798/ns/us_news-crime_and_cour...

> Commission President Anthony Pacheco said Friday that he was highly concerned after learning police have arrested at least two innocent people because of faulty fingerprint analysis.

And how many innocent people were convicted based on false positives?

How many guilty people were convicted based on true positives?

These are not comparable. The first must be zero, and the second should be "as many as possible while keeping the first at zero."
It must be zero? What if that resulted in 50% of murderers getting away?
What happened to "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." As expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work, Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s.

Seems you're willing to punish an innocent man and a guilty man just to make sure a committed crime is followed up with a conviction.

Why have such a low bar in 2019?

Innocent people are killed by the same murderers in both scenarios. In yours, they are also sometimes killed or imprisoned by the state and are therefore at more total risk.
Then the justice system is relying on faulty technology.
The justice system relies on human memory all the time. That’s the most unreliable thing we currently use.
Trying to eliminate false positives at the expense of letting criminals go free is a staple of western criminal law dating back to 1760s. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
Convicted isn't the right metric. Accusing someone of some crimes (generally anything sexually related or child related) is enough to ruin their life.
2 out of how many? Is that 2% or .0000001%
Given that all I had to do was search on the phrase used by the poster, and there were results on the first page... I'd say the total number isn't 2.
How about the fact that those fingerprints Haven long been stolen and likely abused by all sorts of undergeound criminals? Even federal workers fingerprints were stolen in the OPM hack.