[want2know]

There are other problems arising for electric cars: road tax.

Electric cars are way havier than most cars and have so much traction that road maintenance will be much more expensive when everybody has an electric car.

This is why countries like Norway and the Netherlands are thinking about raising the road tax for electric vehicles.

I also think this is why brands like Toyota are still thinking about hydrogen cars. They still don't believe 100% in electric battery cars.

[AgloeDreams]

This is hilariously misguided with little real truth to it.

Are electric Cars heavier? Yes...but not really by much. Sure a Model S is heavy, but it is a full size car designed to compare with other 4000-pound range cars and a side effect of the platform's age meanwhile a Model 3 is less than 10% heavier than a BMW 3 series.

The traction idea is just absurd.

The real reason why Norway wants to raise the road tax is because the taxes they use on gas cars and gas itself is used to pay for road repair and if there are no gas cars then there is no road upkeep budget.

Also, Toyota wants to do hydrogen because they are materials-cheap, offer specific marketable advantages, and easy to build under current architectures enabling larger profits.

[WorldMaker]

Toyota is also probably stuck in a weird version of the sunk costs fallacy at this point, having spent R&D money continuously on hydrogen fuel cells and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles since the 1990s. Luckily for them, a good hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is just a good EV with a really weird "refillable battery", so their sunk costs aren't likely to sink the company because the rest of the "drive train" is the roughly the same for HFC and battery EV.

[AgloeDreams]

Exactly, they were originally acting extremely forward thinking. The one thing they simply did not see coming is the mid-2000's mobile tech revolution. The cost of lithium batteries fell like a rock to where they are today (due to smartphones, etc) and that was simply unforeseeable 20 years ago. What Toyota needs now is a single skateboard platform for both BEV and FCEV and then to simply build the FC models with a dummy pack structure and keep the entire rest of the design the same.

[WorldMaker]

To keep weight/handling similar they could probably even fill it with as many batteries as they can subtracting only the full weight of a filled fuel cell (ie, it may not be so much of a "dummy" pack). That might keep HFC EVs in line to be the last surviving PHEV model as ICE retires, which would keep/permanently enshrine Toyota's (Prius) spot in the PHEV hall of fame.

[rootusrootus]

Well, to be fair, a Model S weighs more than some F-150s, and a Model 3 can weigh more than 4000 pounds, which is pretty porky for such a small car.

But ... I don't see what that really has to do with paying for roads. We will replace the gas tax, and in fact most places are already talking about how to do it. Doesn't seem like an intractable problem at all, and will probably be fixed well before EV adoption gets into the double digits.

[AgloeDreams]

I agree wholly on the second point though I will say as per the weight thing, the Model 3 actually weighs about 150 pounds more than a BMW 3 Series, its direct competition. Not a really light car but also not crazy heavy as claimed. The same goes for the Model S whereas its competition the MB S-Class, Audi A8, and BMW 7 Series all have similar weights. They are heavy cars for sure, compared to most compact cars, but that's more of a factor of their size and class rather than their drivetrain. Future BEV's will gain range from lighter drivetrains so it's def. a goal they will be seeking.

[want2know]

Well maybe this is different in the US but in Europe electric cars are easily 20% heavier than similar models.

The traction idea is not absurd. Tesla owners claim the tires last around 25000 kilometers instead of 60000 when the drive 'insane' all the time.

Takeshi Uchiyamanda was always talking about the environment when he talked about hydrogen. And even now he sees that battey cars are taking off he still stand by his point.

But that is all marketing talk?

[AgloeDreams]

The first two points don't really apply to future electric cars however.

Euro Electric car models (like the e-golf or such) are generally adapted gasoline models that require additional hardware to make the design work, this is obviously inefficient. To make it clear, the current non-tesla/Jag/Audi EVs are almost all examples of designs that will not be seen in the future so I don't think they are fair to compare. The VW ID3 would probably be the best example of a future euro electric car.

The traction idea is absurd for a few reasons: 1: fast cars exist currently. 2: There is no proof to the idea that accelerating hard has any effect at all on roads. 3: Tesla's Performance is incredible, sure...but that's a $100K car, it is not what will be sold mass market or bought mass market. It's priced near that of a Porsche 911 turbo, which accelerates somewhat near to the level of the Model S and has never been this kind of issue.

As for hydrogen, look at this Toyota-press chart: https://insideevs.com/news/353600/toyota-six-global-bevs/

1: they are not all in on FCEV 2: Their own chart shows them believing that BEVs will eventually outsell Fuel Cell (but of course not before FC takes off..which it hasn't. )

[tk75x]

Tire manufacturers warranty their tires for a specific amount of miles/kilometers. If a person buys a set of tires that are supposed to last for 50,000 miles (assuming they buy the correct size, load, and speed rated tires for their vehicle) and the tires wear down in half that distance, we would have seen a spate of people claiming their warranty replacements, and we have not.

[pi-rat]

That's been debunked here in Norway. The major factor to road wear and tear is and has always been trucks and other heavy vehicles.

> - It does not matter how many passenger cars drive on the roads. Only heavy transport wears it down, says Arild Ragnøy at the Norwegian Public Roads Administration.

> - All the analyzes I have seen show that all wear and tear comes from the heavy trucks, zero from private cars, says Harald Tune Larsen at the Department of Transport Economics.

Source: https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/nxE5/Bare-de-tunge-kjoret...

(Also by current law, EVs will never pay more than 50% of ICE taxes and fees, for toll roads, public parking, etc.)

[chrisjc]

> The major factor to road wear and tear is and has always been trucks and other heavy vehicles.

What about electric trucks and other heavy vehicles? Or is there little difference since these vehicles would probably have been diesel with a lot of potential torque anyways?

[pi-rat]

That I do not know, diesel trucks are very torquey, though Elon said that their Semi could probably pull a diesel up a hill in a tug match.

I live in a pretty steep hillside of the town, and the electric garbage truck here handles it like a boss. It's made by Geesinknorba, but I couldn't find any specs.

[audunw]

".. that road maintenance will be much more expensive when everybody has an electric car."

Not really. As far as I've read, road wear grows exponentially with weight. Ah, you think, so EVs WILL make it much worse. No. What it means is that road wear is heavily dominated by heavy duty vehicles. Big trucks and such. Not personal cars. What EVs would add is a drop in the bucket.

The traction thing depends on the vehicle. My EV (Kia Soul EV) defaults to an "Eco" mode where traction is limited. The range you get is heavily dependent on driving style, so EV owners do have incentive to drive smoothly. It also increases tire wear. Most people don't like to throw away money. Yeah, you get some Tesla owners that will use "insane" mode all the time.. but that's probably a minority.

"This is why countries like Norway and the Netherlands are thinking about raising the road tax for electric vehicles."

Norway is pretty damn far away from making EVs pay more than ICE. There's still a lot of financial incentives for EVs, and pretty much everyone is on board with phasing them out slowly and keeping with the target of 100% of new cars being zero emission in the 2025-2030 time frame.

They just added toll fees for EVs in Oslo, but it's still much less than what ICEs pay.

[FrojoS]

Its an interesting point that might be relevant for heavy BEV likes semi trucks, busses etc., not for personal cars though.