[nostrademons]

Disagreement is shaped as much by power as agreement, because in both cases you accept the framing of what gets discussed posed by the people in power. Truly claiming that power for yourself requires breaking out of the frame entirely and directing your attention where you want it.

For example, public educators have near-absolute power over K-12 students in the U.S. Many students rebel against this (I certainly did), and do things like argue about homework or refuse to go to class. But that accepts the educators' power as legitimate; if it weren't, you wouldn't bother to rebel against it! Someone truly intent on seizing power for themselves would devote the minimum amount of effort and attention to pleasing his teachers, and then go off and write a machine-learning based MP3 player that he can go sell to Microsoft for a million dollars.

[nybble41]

> But that accepts the educators' power as legitimate; if it weren't, you wouldn't bother to rebel against it!

On the contrary, it only accepts that their power exists. That is not the same as accepting its legitimacy. If you accepted their power as legitimate then you wouldn't be rebelling! The rebellion occurs because of the this discrepancy between what is and what ought to be, as the student perceives it.

[nostrademons]

You're still accepting the frame: you're putting your energy and time into fighting against existing structures, which robs you of that energy for creating new structures.

People who actually hold power just go about their lives as if the world they wished to exist actually exists. That's what it means to have power - that you get to live in your version of the world.

[nybble41]

I am not disputing any of that, but what you said before was that rebellion "accepts the educators' power as legitimate", which is incorrect. The act of rebellion indicates acceptance that the educators have power, but it rejects the idea that this power is legitimate. This is a far more constructive basis for realizing change than pretending that the very real power which the educators have over the students does not exist. If you want to move beyond fantasy and make your preferred version of the world a reality you first need to be willing to face the truth of the world as it actually exists. Accepting where you are is just as important as visualizing where you want to go.

[matt-attack]

Very interesting take. Wish I understood this decades ago.