[wharnal]

> Sagarwala, according to the ruling in Washington, D.C. U.S. District Court, received an H-1B visa in 2012, but those visas are tied to specific employers. So when she sought to change jobs in August last year, the prospective new employer, outsourcing firm HSK Technologies, had to go through the visa application process again.

So she had lived in the US for six years and still had to beg the government for permission to change jobs? I had no idea it was this bad.

[abc_lisper]

:) I am in US for 18 years now, have a master's degree and work at a FANG company, and don't have a GC yet. I am not saying this to seek sympathy, but things are way worse than they look.

The system is gamified by outsourcing companies and body shops, that are more worried about their people in, play the numbers game and clog the H-1B and GC routes, make it difficult for everyone who is trying to do quality work without playing cheap tricks.

[Uhhrrr]

This is why H1B's should be auctioned, to kill the body shops which are gaming the current lottery system.

[conanbatt]

Or eliminate the cap altogether and never talk about this problem ever again.

[rdtwo]

That would benefit scammy firms like infosys

[gumby]

How so? Body shop scammers who spam the H-1 system would no longer have an advantage.

[metildaa]

Body shops would be able to bring in many more workers, and supress wages further.

The dearth of middle income jobs in the USA is in part caused by these body shops flooding the domestic market with questionable talent, driving down wages and living standards severely.

[jgalt212]

Yeah, that will do wonders for the wage growth in this country.

[conanbatt]

It literally would. Theoretically and practically. Tariffs and trade restrictions make all parties poorer.

[stbernardlove]

Thank you for saying how it is and now just blaming on "racist country caps". We might abolish caps tomorrow, but you'll still be as backlogged as you were before.

[paxys]

I have been here 12 years, and know people 15-18+ years, all in the same boat. I can be asked to leave the country tomorrow because I tried to switch jobs, my boss woke up on the wrong side of the bed or literally any or no other reason.

[mantap]

Why do you do it? I'm sorry if it sounds callous, I'm just curious really. I personally wouldn't be able to endure such a precarious and stressful situation.

[morningcovfefe]

You intend to leave the first 4 years.. Then someone applies for a green card on your behalf and you believe there's a path to permanence - and you see folks getting green cards all the time.. Then 5 years later you find out, because you were born in the wrong country, you get to wait 70 years instead of 1. But by then you have a wife, kids and a dog. Then you kinda resign yourself to have to leaving someday but stay and make the TC you can while you can

[supercanuck]

Well it is considered a "Temporary Visa" and for a specialty occupation.

>Generally, a citizen of a foreign country who wishes to enter the United States must first obtain a visa, either a nonimmigrant visa for temporary stay, or an immigrant visa for permanent residence. Temporary worker visas are for persons who want to enter the United States for employment lasting a fixed period of time, and are not considered permanent or indefinite.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employme...

[rayiner]

An H1-B visa holder is, under the statute, a "non-immigrant alien" who is "temporarily" in the United States to perform a specialized occupation. 8 USC 1101(a)(15)(H)(1)(b). The fact that it's tied to a specific job is by design. H1-B is not intended to be an immigration path for skilled workers. (The fact that it is often used that way is just a by-product of the fact that the U.S. allows almost all non-short-term visa holders to apply for a green card. But H1-B was not created as a stepping stone toward that process, and its requirements are not really geared toward making it easy to serve as a "staging" ground for green card applicants.)

Does the U.S. need a real skilled immigrant visa? Maybe. That's really a separate question.

[Bhilai]

> Nonimmigrants in H-1B or L-1 status can be the beneficiary of an immigrant visa petition, apply for adjustment of status, or take other steps toward Lawful Permanent Resident status without affecting their status. This is known as "dual intent" and has been recognized in immigration law since passage of the Immigration Act of 1990.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/About%20Us/E...

[rayiner]

You’re mixing up two different things. “Dual intent” just means that you don’t lose your eligibility for a temporary status visa (which requires you to have intent to return to your home country) by filing for a green card. It basically allows you to express cognitive dissonance about your immigration intentions. That does not mean that the H1-B visa itself is not a temporary visa. The H1-B program itself remains designed for temporary workers.

[Bhilai]

Oh I see, thanks for the correction.

[winter_blue]

Congress explicitly intended for the H-1B to be a stepping stone to an employment-based immigrant visa. Why? Two reasons:

(A) Prior to 1990, the processing times for employment-based immigrant visas were in the order of a few years. Practically speaking, no employer ever sponsored someone for an EB green card if they weren't already working for them at an office abroad. Congress wanted to provide a practical pathway for skilled immigration. The quote "non-immigrant" H, L, O, are explicitly intended to be stepping stones to permanent residence. Look up the Congressional record on this matter (ie debates on the 1990 Act) . There were also some articles from the Cato Institute elucidating this, but I don't remember their names.

(B) The original 1990 bill explicitly exempted H, L, O visa holders from having "non-immigrant" intent. The fact that folks on H, L, O are "non-immigrants" is an accident of how the Immigration and Nationality (INA) is structured. If you're not required to maintain "non-immigrant intent", and are explicitly allowed to call the United States your home by the law (specifically, the INA) you are in no sense a "non-immigrant". The later AC21 bill went further and made people waiting with approved employment-based green card applications, exempt from the 6-year H-1B limit.

Finally, it is insulting and degrading to be called a "non-immigrant" when you have lived for over 10 years in the U.S., by people who have no understanding how the system works, like yourself. I'm trying to be less triggered by comments like yours on HN, but it's difficult. I have to say that based on your commenting history here, I've noticed a very clear pattern of xenophobia, so even if you did understand how horrid the US system is, you'd still likely enjoy insulting people who've lived here for 15 or 20 years, by calling them "non-immigrants". But that's your prerogative/freedom. TBH, despite being a lawyer, rayiner, you have no knowledge of the legislative history of the INA, and shoot out falsehoods from your mouth, with an air of authority. I don't know what causes you (or caused you) to be so incredibly hateful towards immigrants, and I don't really care why either. But please don't turn HN into such a hostile place for non-citizens living and working in the US. I remember reading your comment from a month or so ago, where you called Canada's immigration policy "ruthless". That's a degrading term (towards Canada). I think their skilled immigration policy is the best in the world. Canada is a country that values skilled immigrants, and treats them with respect and dignity. I deeply wish the US had an immigration system similar to Canada's. But it doesn't. Canada is doing something good. But you chose to insult them for it. Canada's immigration system is the best in the world, and it actually allows a skilled person to get permanent residence quickly, and doesn't force you to spend a 10+ years on visas with limited rights, freedoms, etc. So please don't insult Canada. And ironically, while I can make $200k+ in the US, I am tempted by the freedom that Canada offers, despite lower pay there. It's unfortunately all-too-common for anti-immigrant folk on HN to paint all people on work visas (H, L, O, etc) as working for bad employers, or being thoroughly underpaid -- but this is rooted entirely in ignorance (or in willful dishonesty). My base salary is $140k+ which is an "OES Level 4 Wage", and I've made over $200k with bonuses in the past. Then there's folks like throwaway082729 who make $650k/yr: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20473537 When xenophobic people on HN are confronted by facts like this, it causes them cognitive dissonance, and throws into muddy water the foundation for their hatred for immigrants. And what happens? They simply downvote. They can't accept the fact that everything they've believed about skilled immigrants (e.g. being low-paid) is utterly false. Please don't be like that. Please try to be a better person.

[pandaman]

There are not one, but two immigrant visas for skilled immigrants already. EB1A and EB2-NIW. No need to find a sponsoring employer, no requirement to prove that there are no qualified Americans, no salary requirements, almost no backlog even for people born in India and China, at least for the former.

It's the visa to get for the so-called "best and brightest". Of course, the catch is that you need to be really skilled and be able to prove it.

[copperx]

And you must not be here on a non-immigrant Visa. You need a dual-intent compatible visa such as H1B.

[pandaman]

This is incorrect: you don't need to be in the US at all to apply for any immigrant visa. I believe the Indian body shops perpetuate the fictitious idea that, similarly to naturalization, there is also a required time to be present in the country before being eligible for a GC. While I can see how it fits into their business model, it could not be further from the reality. Not only there is no required time to be in the country but there is no requirement to be in the country at all in order to obtain an immigrant visa - it can be all done in the home country and you can enter the US as an LPR without ever setting foot there before.

[copperx]

Yes, that's true. But what I meant was that if you're in the US, you need to have a dual-intent visa.

[pandaman]

This is also incorrect. You can adjust into immigration status from any legal status in general, there might be different complications depending on status (e.g. you might not be able to leave and re-enter the country in some or you need to follow 30/60/90 rule with others) but there is no requirement to be in a dual intent status for AOS. If worse comes to worst you can always do consular processing and only leave the US to stamp your immigration visa in a foreign consulate and re-enter in the new immigrant status.

The "dual intent" concept is for the non-immigrant visa. If you don't want to read the official explanation, posted around here many times already, it means that you don't have to prove strong ties with your country when applying for such a visa. For visas without dual intent you have to prove the lack of immigration intent. For dual intent ones you don't.

[m_samuel_l]

H1B is a dual intent visa

[kelnos]

Putting aside for a moment the insane fact that someone can be in the green card queue for even six years (and I know people who have been in it for much longer), I don't see this as unreasonable. If you've had an H-1B approved for a particular kind of job, and then try to go work for one of the body-shop consulting/outsourcing firms, that absolutely should not be allowed.

These firms have been abusing the H-1B system for years, giving the visa (and often the workers who have it) a bad name.

[paxys]

Six years would be a blessing. Most people I know have been waiting 10 years or longer. The green card queue for the vast majority of applicants today is essentially infinite, even if you stay in the same job at the same company.

[dudul]

Isn't it only true for applicants from India and China? As far as I know (and I may be mistaken, this is just what my immigration lawyer told me a while ago) for all other countries it's not that bad, rarely passed a few years.

[paxys]

India, China, Mexico, Philippines and a few others. But the vast majority of the applicants are from these countries.

[copperx]

I didn't think Mexico was in the list. A friend from Mexico got a GC after 3 years on an H1B.

[dudul]

But that's because there is a per-country yearly cap. I just think it may not be wise to make blanket statements like "it takes 22 years to get a GC!" while this is only true for half a dozen of nationalities.

[paxys]

If 95% of the applicants are going to wait that long then how is it not an accurate statement?

[gumby]

My German wife waited 7 years for her GC.

[ergothus]

This is definitely, painfully, normal. It also impacts where a worker will go - big companies have immigration lawyers on staff to help with this, while smaller companies have to leave the workers to largely fight the battle on their own.

This means, regardless of wage(!), big companies have a bigger pool to hire from.

[throwaway082729]

I've been here for 17+ years, earn $650k/yr and I'm still in the same boat. I'm at the mercy of the govt. if I want to change jobs. Moreover, I need to restart the labor certification process and reapply for my green card though I get to keep the same priority date. There's no end in sight i.e. I cannot predict when I'll get my green card due to the per-country cap and backlog. Worse, I cannot quit and take time off even for a day.

[product50]

Surprised this is getting downvoted. These types of salaries are somewhat common in FANG companies for senior engineers and it is common for some of them (depending on their nationality) to still wait for the green card for 15+ yrs. I know people here won't like the truth but this is the current reality for Indian citizens legally immigrated in US.

On the other hand, it is actually easier to get a green card if you are an illegal immigrant - which is the real thing that boggles my mind. I was talking to an Uber driver the other day who was from Congo but came illegally to US and got his green card within 2 yrs. Not saying that the Congo folks shouldn't get green cards but a high skilled legal immigrant, who is able to command $300k+ in salary (which is sufficiently high to categorize them out of the IT body shop type work), is someone US should try to value at least as much (if not more) vs. an illegal immigrant.

[unexpected]

This is not true - in your Congo example, the driver claimed asylum, won his case, and then was able to apply for his green card. You cannot go from illegal immigrant to green card directly. Many people don't win their asylum cases and are deported.

[ra7]

Most highly skilled legal immigrants would have also invested time and money for a US graduate education, often taking out big education loans. So if an illegal immigrant is getting a permanent residency within 2 years and a highly skilled legal immigrant is waiting 10+ years, the system is severely broken and unfair.

[gumby]

He wouldn't qualify if he'd been here illegally. Probably he came without a visa and applied for asylum (basically anybody in Congo who's not a warlord surely is in danger of life and limb), was granted asylum and then got leave to remain via GC. Which sounds reasonable.

[winter_blue]

throwaway082729, I'm so sorry you're getting downvoted. You are the kind of person who deserves to have gotten permanent residence a long time ago.

[leakybit]

So the rich are more entitled to get a green card?

[paxys]

Highly skilled people should be more entitled to a green card (and that often corresponds to highly paid)

[conanbatt]

The rich also get the protection from competition from abroad. There is an unlimited visa for nannies, but limited for doctors, lawyers and software engineers.

[usaphp]

Why not get an investor visa? It's easily convertible to green card according to several people I know who did it. You only need $500K or so for the whole thing. And investment money were returned even with some profit.

[fernandopj]

As I recall it doesn't even need to be $500k upfront, you have to (show/prove) you'll invest that and generate jobs in a couple of years.

[deminature]

You have to prove you'll create jobs for a minimum of 10 U.S. citizens, which sounds somewhat nontrivial.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrat...

[kevin_thibedeau]

You just get roped into a big development project like Hudson Yards in NYC which was an excuse to sell thousands of EB5 visas. The bonus is your investment in "blight" redevelopment turns into luxury housing you can purchase to park your excess funds.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/04/hudson-yards-financin...

[satya71]

Not really. Most such investments are in hotels/hospitals etc with large number of low paid employees.

[usaphp]

You can just provide the money without actually doing any leg work in hiring or managing the business itself. As far as I know you get a list of businesses that require funding and you will pick which one you will fund

[scarejunba]

It's a million dollars now. They changed it.

[usaphp]

It says $500,000 investment in a rural area will do it: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrat...

[throwaway082729]

Too risky to put so much of my hard-earned money into it. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

[geodel]

Huh, wouldn't putting 1 million dollar investment get you EB5 green card in very short time?

[morningcovfefe]

It takes 2 years and a lot of lawyers and maybe you might get it.. (it's not guaranteed at all) but if you've earned the 500k the hard way you're not very inclined to gamble it on the slim chance. Besides.. there's better places to retire on 500k

[nullspace]

Honestly, with that kind of salary - it feels like you could save up enough to get to an EB-5 investors category, which have far shorter waiting times, correct?

Or am I mistaken?

[product50]

EB-5 for Indians has a 3+ yr timeline now and you have to shell out at least $500k. And there is no guarantee you will get approved.

[bonzini]

Even O-1 seems like it could be a good possibility (I wrote a reference letter for a colleague seeking the O-1 via a few years ago, and I only had to describe his work as open source project lead).

[winter_blue]

You mean EB-1. The O-1 is a temporary visa. Approvals of EB-1 are unfortunately highly subjective. It's like winning a lottery (based on who looks at your application).

[bonzini]

O-1 is extensible, isn't it? You can get it first instead of H-1B, and then apply for a green card once you move to the US.

[winter_blue]

Yes, it can be extended any number of times. But each and every O-1 approval is also highly subjective and discretionary.

The standard is somewhat lower than EB-1. While EB-1 requires what Congress calls "extraordinary ability", the O-1 requires "exceptional ability".

Again, the way things work is that whichever officer looks at the case, subjectively decides if it qualifies (in his/her opinion).

Nothing like the highly-objective points-based skilled immigration system you have in some countries.

[refurb]

Considering the average US citizen has a median income of $50K, it's kind of hard to feel sorry for you.

[Bhilai]

OP is not stopping anyone from pursuing higher education or working hard or getting a high paying job, they are merely describing their experience of the broken system and not asking for your sympathy.

[dang]

Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN. Perhaps you don't owe the GP better, but you owe this community better if you want to post here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[refurb]

Noted, but I didn't feel my comment unsubstantive.

The OP comes to America as an immigrant (as did I), makes more money in one year than most American's make in 20. My comment simply put his "problem" into perspective.

[dang]

There was no information in it other than that the GP makes more money than others, which was missed by no one, and a vague expression of resentment about it. I'm afraid that's completely unsubstantive by HN standards.

[conanbatt]

Why stop at immigration restrictions then, just jail and confiscate all the goods from immigrants.

[trilila]

The silliest immigration visa for skilled workers in the western world.

[brighter2morrow]

>So she had lived in the US for six years and still had to beg the government for permission to change jobs? I had no idea it was this bad.

The purpose of the H1B program is for foreign specialists to do work for which no American worker can be found. It's not for foreigners to come to the US and go job hopping.

[HBKXNCUO]

She lived in a foreign country run by foreigners and administered by a government created for the sole purpose of serving the interests of those foreigners and their posterity. If those foreigners have decided for whatever reason to restrict access to the labor markets in their country, how is it "bad" for their government to enforce that?

[m0zg]

You only have to do that if your new job is significantly different than your existing one. You do have to notify the government (USCIS probably) that you're changing jobs, bu that's not "visa application process again" if your new job is similar, and you're unlikely to be denied.

Job changes are very dangerous for H1-Bs in other ways and employers know it (and abuse it, nearly all of them). Basically if your employer finds out you're looking for a job and you don't already have another job lined up, they can fire you out of spite, and you'll have to GTFO the US within (IIRC) 2 weeks. There's absolutely no recourse. Even if you are in a protected class, you're very unlikely to sue unless you're in the US and have lots of money (which H1-Bs typically don't). So few people bother unless the situation is really dire.

It's not just H1-B either. F1-OPT gets abused in a similar fashion.

[frankchn]

Your new employer has to file a H1B petition de novo, with the only difference that you are not subject to the lottery any more. USCIS may well take the view that your new job, even if it is doing the same thing, is not a specialty occupation any more.

[m0zg]

SWE->SWE is relatively safe. And there are a number of significant differences between a truly "de novo" petition and a transfer. While it is true that you need a sponsor, and therefore a petition needs to be filed, you don't need to wait for it to be approved to start working at the new place. You can also have multiple prospective employers file petitions, so if one gets denied another might get approved, or if you get a better offer you get the option of picking and choosing. The process is still fraught with uncertainty (particularly if H1-B worker brought their wife and kids along), but you aren't really "starting from scratch" or undergoing the same degree of scrutiny.

It used to be worse, BTW: it used to be that you couldn't really change jobs at all, and until fairly recently, your spouse (who is typically on H4) couldn't work. Or to be exact, she/he could, but couldn't get paid (volunteering was OK).

[paxys]

It isn't a "notification", you still have to file for a new visa regardless of how similar the new position is. And it can very well be denied. The only concession is that you won't be subject to the annual limit and won't have to go through the lottery.

[akshat_h]

and you'll have to GTFO the US within (IIRC) 2 weeks.

I think there was a grace period of 60 days introduced in 2017 though I am not sure on the status of it now.

[jogjayr]

It's a one-time grace period, not 60 days cumulative over a lifetime. The second time you get laid off without a new job in hand no grace period for you.