[robbrit]

Does anybody know how hard it is for non-Chinese citizens to live and work in China?

One of the competitive advantages of the US has been its ability to draw top talent from all over the world and not just its own citizens. Chinese citizens leaving the US is not a good thing, but it is just one nationality. If China manages to draw talent from everywhere, then the US has a real problem ahead of it.

For example, my team in the US only has a few US citizens on it, most of us are foreigners who moved here for the opportunities. While a few are Chinese, the majority are from countries other than China and the US.

[deogeo]

Very hard, especially for non-ethnic Chinese, as there is about 1 million immigrants in China, total (that's 0.07%):

> He said the policies, much like those of Japan and South Korea, were “predicated on a very strong nation-state that defines itself as the home of a particular ethnic and cultural group that wants to maintain its purity and wants to let in only what it really, really desperately needs.” [1]

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/world/asia/china-green-ca...

[FreedomToCreate]

Its very difficult to get any type of semi-permanent/permanent work visa for foreigners in China. A lot of foreigners who go to Shenzhen to work on a hardware start-up, are doing it illegally in technical terms. They are all on business visas on which you can't start a business in China. And beyond just work, civil liberties are extremely limited in China. You are good as long as you don't get the government looking at you.

[robocat]

And to add, Shenzhen is a special economic zone (SEZ), which has relatively less harsh attitudes towards enforcing visa rules.

It felt like an extremely capitalist city when I visited a few years ago - everyone is trying to make a buck. I did see hundreds of cops get bused in to deal with some sort of street vendor fight (which at the time reminded me of when I visited South Lake Tahoe one night).

[tanilama]

Pretty hard.

China is not an immigrant country. If you don't look like Chinese/Asian, then you are an outiler.

Diversity isn't something China, or East Asia values in general, uniformity instead.

[baybal2]

> Does anybody know how hard it is for non-Chinese citizens to live and work in China?

It used to be easy... My first work visa to China took just 1 week to get: no criminal check, no work history check, no academic credentials check, you just get it.

Now people are saying it takes from 1 to 3 months.

Dark skinned people have hard time in China. Fat people, even worse.

Shenzhen looks like a totalitarian fairyland — a hard to convey impression. It is one of the best cities by quality of life in Asia, but... you get those 1:00am police visits, ID checks everywhere, and you, being a foreigner, are a magnet for all kinds of "overly ambitious" policemen.

Shenzhen is a pretty international city, but even today it is hard to avoid crowds of onlookers, and unsolicited selfie requests.

Jobs... I'd say better than nothing for a foreigner. It is one of the best places in China where a foreigner can get a meaningful job, but even that doesn't make it a lot. Old links are essential here.

You had to come to the city like 10 years ago, to have a chance to network with local businessmen. Not so much today. Rich businesspeople around are much more insular these days.

A friend of mine once worked for Duan Yongping in nineties, and knew him personally. 20 years later, that link still keep earning him top jobs to this day.

The expat commune here is way smaller than it appears at first glance. I keep bumping into people I met like 10 years ago, when I worked as a translator/interpreter in a Singaporean sourcing company.

Dating scene. Kinda very, very random. Not so many local women will consider a foreigner, and those who will are from two fringes of socioeconomic spectrum. You can date a factory owner today, and a literal village girl tomorrow.

The city is very young by Chinese standards. It was the one and only big city in China with an average age below 30 in recent history. A lot of youngsters still come from all over China, blindly seeking luck. It becomes harder and harder for such types to establish themselves here with each year.

Shenzhen gets more expensive with each year and is about to outrun Shanghai as China's most expensive city. The city turns less and less of a manufacturing hub, and more and more of a "Dubai of the East"

The famed manufacturing industry today is a shadow of its former self. Newcomers to Shenzhen ask me how it could've even been possible for the manufacturing to be bigger than the cyclopic scale it is on now. I say to them that the famous Huaqiang road market sprawl in its best years was spreading for many city blocks, and on some days was reaching the central park. This is how it was during the "Shanzhai" boom of 2008-2012. Since then, the industry has been on the unending downward trend.

Transport, and getting around: much better than any US city, but there are rough corners to the system. Gas scooters are banned, bigger electric scooters are in grey zone. Only electric mopeds are allowed, and even that is not given. Owning a car is more expensive in absolute terms than in US or Canada.

Food — very good, cuisines from all over China. Probably with exception of northeast.

Weather — typical tropical weather. Nothing to add to that.

Now last one, having fun. Very much like Dubai — the place is damn boring. Just like Dubai, a lot of glamour doesn't automatically mean a lot of fun.

[yomly]

What industry do you work in now?

What kind of salaries are developers of 5ish years experience earning?

[baybal2]

1. Electronics. Consumer and industrial

2. Just for any engineering job in China there is a personal "middle income trap" of around net CNY25000-30000 per month. You reach it, and your career progression stalls, possibly for a decade or so.

Progress past the formal "senior" level is a rare, rare luck.

At 30000 net a month, you can live very very well in China.

[yomly]

Any idea what people at BAT earn?

30k rmb isn't bad for being in China but also isn't great at global level...

[baybal2]

> Any idea what people at BAT earn?

Should be the same. Just because of their size there should be more space to grow for a senior, but in general they can afford to pay less then the market rate because they think that the talent will keep coming to them because of their big name.

In China, the salary distribution is very very homogenious, unlike in the West. Any kind of seniority, experience, or performance component will rarely contribute to more that 30% of your salary.

That is why China looses out to the West when it comes to retaining super senior level specialists. They either start their own business, or move to the West

[user5994461]

You must be kidding. It's incredibly good at global level.

The currency conversion gives 38k-47k euros. It's about the top compensation you could get in Europe, ignoring London and Switzerland.

[yomly]

If you can afford a house in London, you can probably afford a house in XYZ

The reverse doesn't usually follow (unless XYZ is Monaco :p)

So "global" is relative but if in my personal view "global" everyone in SV, or NYC or Dubai or London is competing with you on purchasing power and general access to resources so local quality of life is only half the picture.

Unless of course you choose to completely sign out of the "chase" which is a viable strategy and its own set of tradeoffs

[victords]

Hold on. What's the deal with being fat?

They're literally refusing visa because people are fat?

[seattle_spring]

Nothing to do with visas, it's just how others treat people that look different there.

[zrobotics]

Poor treatment by the locals, similar to racism experienced by dark-skinned people.

[user5994461]

Thanks. That's a great write up.

[chvid]

As far as I can see it is quite easy. Though language and work culture may be a barrier.

[chvid]

I can see you have got answers pointing in two completely different directions.

I was stuck by this statistical from a recent article in SCMP:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3016657/he...

To help narrow its chip gap, Beijing looks east to Taiwan

"There are no official numbers about how many Taiwanese are working at tech companies on the mainland, but a widely cited statistic suggests that about 9 per cent of the island’s population, or 2 million people – including businessmen, managers, students and their families – are living on the mainland."

[xmly]

You have money, then it becomes very easy