[tjoff]

There are tons and tons of ortholinear diy-boards floating around.

The problem with curved boards is manufacturing (for diy) and the pcb. But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. So there are a few curved boards out there as well. Such as https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/R...

As for touchpads they kind of suck as an input device (imo), but it would be easy to incorporate an apple device in the above. But people seem to be experimenting more with large ball mouses such as the kensington trackball or something like the point-stick that thinkpads use, where you don't even have to lift your hands of home-row.

[oposa]

> But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs.

It doesn't really. Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing. That is what puts you on somewhat equal footing with a large entity. What we mostly have with 3d printing is a do-it-for-yourself culture. That is why every institution will have an exclusive maker space, where you will get reprimanded if you use too much machine time. Why people dump things on github without documentation for their resume. And why the hacker news thread on the raspberry pi is about what people are using rather than what they have created.

A keyboard is a very basic object. It is almost like the hello world of hardware. Despite this it is very challenging to produce and publish one [0][1], or something like one [2]. But these stories mostly fall of deaf ears as this important part of diy culture has become marginalized.

[0] https://blog.keyboard.io/post/181333242149/december-2018-a-s... [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/ [2] http://www.tlalexander.com/business/

[hakfoo]

Doing a keyboard is easy. Doing it well is surprisingly hard.

Canned firmwares solve a lot of bootstrapping problems, and there are spoon-feed tutorials to get a working PCB, but you run into a lot of real-world constraints soon.

While loose wiring allows for custom experimentation of some designs, ergonomic 3D shapes, it also tends to increase complexity of assembly and risk of things going wrong (shorts and loose connections) It's also a mess if you want custom lighting. So you tend to stick to PCB-based designs for anything beyond one-off projects.

Commercial quality mounting plates and cases are more of an impediment than the electronics. Yeah, you can make a science fair project, but for something you're using 12 hours a day for years, people want a point of pride. Want one 104-key switch mounting plate cut? It's probably going to be over $100. Bespoke CNC milled cases can be over $500. Since there are commercial offerings now for many popular sizes, it's easier to say "I'll make a slight riff on the existing 60% size, so people can use a cheap case, than to try a zesty new layout that means a $400 admission charge."

Note this is from an enthusiast short-run-of-kits perspective. If you're going for commercial production, then you have issues with sourcing and manufacturers. We're now into year five of waiting for the Matias corporation to get new keycap designs they promised to market.

[oposa]

Sure, that is sort of what I am saying. It is hard to build a community around custom cases when injection molding starts at $5k. It is like trying to start a band (before the Internet) with no venues, demo or posters. That would be infinite rehearsal.

But I guess as I said in my other comment it depends on what you mean with diy. If it is about doing something in the craft sense you can 3d print, laser cut and solder. And you can collect keycaps and choose colours. But if it is doing something where the design of the keyboard is what you are doing, rather the assembling of it, than you need some sort medium for your design. And since their aren't much of scene to present your work in (like you would have with custom cars) you have distribute it.

There a huge disconnect between this idea of drones, 3d printing or maker spaces as the future and the reality of what is possible on the ground. And that is about being able to make a hundred of something without waiting months, spending quite a bit of money and/or traveling to China.

But I guess it is a bit of a tangent. As you said people don't make more different keyboards because things like cases and flex pcbs are expensive.

[tjoff]

We are talking about diy though? So I don't see how any of that is relevant?

[oposa]

I don't think we are talking about the same diy.

There is one definition of diy, which I guess is now more common, that means self-repair, crafting or hobbyism. But there is also a more distinct definition, as in diy culture, that means having the capabilities that are usually only afforded certain professionals or companies. It is primary the latter definition that creates innovation and communities.

The parent was asking why there isn't more innovation in keyboards despite the freedom to create them. The reason is because most of these keyboard are scrapbooks rather than zines. For that purpose 3d printing and handwiring makes sense. But for the purpose of innovation you need to be able to distribute your ideas. Which is something most people can't, because it is hard to do so.

That is why most people are making flat keyboards, because that is what is within their reach. But that is more ikea than hip hop. Maybe we should call it aiy, assemble-it-yourself, instead (but that really isn't that important).

[Animats]

Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing.

That's amusing. But not wrong.

[oposa]

It can of course be discussed but I think many of the 'natural' incentives to organize, or even notice something, like scarcity and expense isn't there anymore. These days there are just so much to compete with.

I guess what people try to do instead is to make things modular. But then you might still end up with a few companies like adafruit and sparkfun running most of the show.

The only good example I can think of is modular synths, which seems to have enough layers to be able to offer the "choose your own adventure" in meaningful way. There I could see how you could make something that people would want to "pull" from you, rather than having to "push" it. But on the other hand I don't know it that well.

[ghaff]

I was a big trackball fan for many years (mostly Logitech models). Although I admit I switched away, in part because there was at least a period when I didn't like any of the models available, but also because Apple finally did a trackpad I actively liked rather than barely tolerated.