[inputcoffee]

I am not offended that you think I may not program. That is fine. (I mean less than some, more than others. I have coded up the examples I brought up.)

But you haven't responded to the argument. If someone urges you to use Racket, and you have task in front of you (say, put up a website), it sort of matters whether Racket has a framework more than if it has brackets, indents or curly braces.

[kjeetgill]

> What am I missing? I want to reason about the language too, but doesn't that pale in comparison to being able to run a specialized library?

> But you haven't responded to the argument. If someone urges you to use Racket [...] it sort of matters whether Racket has a framework [...]

I guess I misunderstood the question; I didn't realize you were making that argument rather than the actually wondering what other thing people care about. I guess the more direct answer would be that questions like "doesn't that pale in comparison" and "it sort of matters" are kinda presumptions about the motivations of a person "who urges you to use Racket".

Articles like this are as much targeted towards "end-user" programmers as they are for the programmers who built the frameworks in the first place. Flask, Django, etc. exist because people that like Python for things like "if it has brackets, indents or curly braces" wanted those tools in that language.

That's what I was trying to get at before: different people are excited by different things (obviously) but that languages absolutely have draws independent of tools that exist in it. Not for everyone, but not for nobody neither.

[rkangel]

Machine learning is a slightly unusual case with powerful important libraries doing the work, with the language on top just being used for orchestration, data loading etc. If that's what you're doing, then you're right, the ML framework availability is far more important.

That's a still a relatively small corner of programming in general though. For most languages when talking about libraries we talk about the 'ecosystem' - what is the availability and quality of all the bits and pieces that we can build upon. It's a question of many small things, rather than one large thing.

Ecosystem differences are less absolute than 'has tensorflow', and so can be weighed up against other language advantages and disadvantages.

Web frameworks are an interesting case because you (usually) don't use them as simple libraries. The interaction with them tends to be complex enough that good frameworks are built around what the language is good at. If the language is right for the sort of programming you want to do, then the framework will express that.

[j88439h84]

There's a lot more to languages than block syntax, and pretty much every language has a web framework.