[xj9]

> None of that is society's fault.

if a society can only produce debt-ridden failures, that society has failed. if society does not provide adequate resources and training, you end up with angry stupid people. there's not really a reason why people need to get into debt to be able to be useful members of society. that's how things are done in the united states, but its a pretty ineffective system in a lot of ways.

[fnordsensei]

To continue along this line of reasoning, a successful society should allow for people to try their hand at a few different things without catastrophic consequences.

It stands to reason that people who are allowed to fail as well as recover are more likely to find a niche that allows them to thrive.

[scarejunba]

Is this evidence-based? I have believed this for a long time but it's from first principles (being able to experiment safely leads to more experiments) but I've noticed that European society is more conservative and prefers not to experiment despite having better welfare systems.

I wonder now whether proportionality is key. Whether the people who will experiment are precisely those who would prefer to make a metric ton for themselves by experimenting and aren't worried about the downside.

FWIW I have lived in Europe, America, and Asia. I like to think I'm fairly neutral.

[watwut]

It a bit depends also on "experiment in what?" and what are other cultural values that interact with it.

VC startup/entrepreneur culture does not punish failure all that much and people experiment a lot of time. There are people who get money after failure and after another failure and again. If you fail, then unless you went into dept you can find job somewhere.

The social system is only one factor in play.

[marcinzm]

I'm not overly familiar but as I understand it that welfare system goes deeper than just providing a financial safety net. To ensure workers aren't unfairly fired it's harder to fire workers. Workers also have a harder time leaving a job (long notice periods). All that makes experimentation more difficult.

[dheera]

I agree with this. As an engineer I can say engineers very much have this. Free cloud computing credits, dirt cheap hardware to experiment on, plenty of free learning resources, and zero travel expenses for most projects.

Artists (and to a great degree, fundamental scientists in traditional academic tenure paths) don't.

[Retric]

Time is the primary limitation on learning art, engineering, or even science not other resources. Kids have a lot of time growing up with few limits, especially with long summers, but it’s still finite. Adults just have more obvious opportunity costs.

Kids are also competing with other kids for recognition and positive feedback, where adults are judged more harshly.

[marak830]

It did for me.

Chef Forklift driver Freelance programmer Admin for a print design studio English teacher

That last one has me in a very good and happy job that pays well (I teach esl kids to cook and program, so everything kind of works out).