[moonhorse]

The reality is that mainlanders want prosperity and stability over democracy. Unless protesters could prove there is a better way to bring prosperity, the propaganda efforts would be futile. It is not 1980s any more.

VPN would not help. I learnt about what happened to Tiananmen Square, but I also learnt there is CIA agents behind a lot of these incidences. Real world is complicated. Politics is pragmatic.

I do hope different countries could put their trifles aside and focus on the big picture as a specie. But it will be a long way. Too much pride, too much at stake. Power struggle is too deep in our genes.

[Arn_Thor]

Would millions of minority citizens interned in "re-education" camps count as "trifles" in your estimation? Because a lot of people internationally are not fans of that, and it's hardly a matter of pride or power struggle. It's an authoritarian government mistreating its citizens without due cause. That's exactly what HK people are trying to prevent happening to them...

The old guard, many immigrated from the mainland, strive to one day democratize China. Hong Kong's youngsters say "screw that, let them keep their dictatorship, we just want to be left alone with the freedoms we've got"

[moonhorse]

I fully understand your hatred towards the Chinese government.

I want to point out what I believe is the root cause. It has nothing to do with communism. Chinese has a deep rooted culture of long range thinking (think "Sun Tzu"). It has always been willing to sacrifice piece for the whole, sacrifice short term for the long term. We read those historical stories as we grow up. It is very scary at times, especially when you end up at the wrong side of the table and you are being sacrificed. This moral code probably is very different from yours. From your perspective, what happens in Xinjiang is severe violation of human rights; from those top guys' perspective, this is sacrificing the freedom of a minority for the stability and prosperity of a whole people. I am not saying I approve this policy as I certainly do not want to be those interned. And you might argue that this "long range thinking" is really servicing communism party's self interest. But your response demonstrates that the chasm is deep. And the chasm is on a cultural level and wont bridge easily.

What this trade war scares me the most is also related with this chasm - it is just so hard to transcend cultures and reach slightest bit of mutual understanding. For a while west thinks China could turn, but now it is really starting to realize there is fundamental difference. It is very scary to me. Like most people on this forum, I do not want to see any escalation in any form of conflict. I just want a peaceful globe and we could continue do our thing that occasionally crosses border.

And speaking of this Hong Kong protest, many Hong Kong friends disapprove it. I read WSj every day and there is no mentioning of what a normal Hong Kong resident think of it. In the end, what do you expect a 18 year old high school protester to understand in regards to what "democracy" mean? At that age, we easily aggrandize our self-righteousness and self-importance and are easily influenced. It is a matter of age. I think fundamentally what is driving such grievance is that Hong Kong is no longer as important as before. And younger generation see no hope. But this is simply inevitable capitalistic evolution. Smart young Hong Kong natives are now looking for opportunities in Beijing. This is the future and we have to embrace it.

[Arn_Thor]

Your dismissal of the protesters is so arrogant I'm struggling to think of a cogent response.

I've seen the argument by mainlanders often that these protests "don't represent the opinion of the people". You know what would reveal the opinion of the people? Universal suffrage and free choice of legco candidates, or Legco elections where the people could vote in a true majority (i.e. abolishing functional constituencies). Until then the only way people can make their voices heard is protest. And with two million on the street a few weeks ago, an unprecedented turnout as a share of population for any kind of protest anywhere in the world the opinion of "normal Hong Kong residents" is clear. But again, want to find out for real? Democratize HK and find out. But we all know what the result would be, including Beijing.

While a majority don't actively support storming LegCo or clashing with police, the majority definitely are against the extradition bill and further mainland encroachment, and they empathize with the protesters' intentions. That is abundantly clear.

Hong Kong is separated from China by a long period with a different value system. While mainlanders might be happy to sacrifice the minority (the "others") for stability—a preference well explained by turbulent Chinese history—the people of Hong Kong most firmly don't. And never will.

I don't hate the Chinese government, although I despise many of those in power there. Overall it's done well in modernizing the country and bringing people out of poverty. And they have done so in part by restricting civil liberties, some might say it's worth it. But interning millions of people or denying due process to dissidents is a red line for me. I cannot accept any justification for that.

[str33t_punk]

The CIA definitely was not behind Tiananmen square and there is no way it could be behind a two million person strong protest...

Conspiracy theory is one of the strongest forms of propaganda. Alex Jones is dumb but effective. It’s a slippery slope before you start blaming the Jews for everything.