[justinjlynn]

While I think Woz sets a good example, they're human - and I'm sure they've done and/or said things that are less than one might expect and which one probably wouldn't approve of or condone - or perhaps which one might even condemn. I'd caution against canonising people - it sets too high a standard; which no one real can meet.

[vasco]

Perhaps out of place but why are you consistently calling Woz "they"? I'm not a native speaker and it sounds very weird.

[justinjlynn]

As I'm not aware of what pronouns they personally prefer, I fall back to using the singular, gender-neutral, "they/them/their". It's a fairly new usage in colloquial English but I find it to be common enough so as to not impair understanding.

[bsaul]

completely off topic, but is this where we’re at now ? Calling someone « they » and thus create confusion, just in case he doesn’t belong to the 99.9% of the population who is just fine with his DNA, and eventhough he never expressed any kind of opinion leading you to think he isn’t fine with his gender ?

[vidarh]

There is no implication that "he isn't fine with his gender". The implication is that the speaker doesn't know, and it doesn't matter enough to find out or make a judgement call.

Personally I still use he/she most of the time unless I have a reason not to, but I also try to get into the habit of assuming less, not least because online in particular it is increasingly noticeable how often we assume someone's gender even in situations we have no reason to.

It's not unsurprising that some choose to carry that over into discussing people they don't know the preference of when it doesn't otherwise matter.

One reason to do so may be to explicitly normalise the usage so it doesn't imply a value judgement e.g based on appearance.

[rusk]

While I'm sympathetic to this point of view, it seems pretty clear to me that Woz self-identifies as male. He has quite a visible profile and has never presented as anything other than masculine (with the exception maybe of the odd flourish on dancing with the stars), so to select such a pronoun in this case I believe is disregarding how he would wish to be identified.

[foldr]

Using a gender neutral pronoun isn't disregarding a person's gender identity, any more than referring to them as a "person" is.

[bsaul]

« One reason to do so may be to explicitly normalise the usage so it doesn't imply a value judgement »

That’s some scary sentence here. so gender is now a « judgment ». Like, there’s no reason to assume because steve wozniak has all the physical characteristics of a male, and has always been called « mister », using « he » (which is the grammatically correct way of designing a male human in the english language by default) is the expression of a value judgement... Seeing this kind of mental twist in a scientific forum (which believes there is something called nature, with laws and hard facts) makes me really scared.

[foldr]

It looks as though you're just looking for an excuse to go on a pre-packaged rant about gender and sex. I find it scary that an innocuous use of singular "they" (which has been in use as long as English as existed) would provoke such a thing.

[vidarh]

You completely failed to understand what I was saying, which is that currently, when you say "they", some portion tends to jump to the conclusion that you're trying to make a point about the person you're talking about.

But some people use "they" just as a default when they're not sure. Using it as a default all of the time then serves to remove the consideration of whether or not it is done to try to send some sort of signal about the subject.

As a case in point, you here keep talking about Woz, but there is no reason to assume that using "they" was meant to imply anything about Woz at all. As such you're demonstrating exactly why to some using "they" in a bid to normalize it matters.

As for getting scared about it, it's just a pronoun. If that "scares" you, then that is an indication to me of why it is important.

[foldr]

Singular 'they' is pretty well established usage by now, regardless of gender considerations. Even people who complain about it still use it: https://stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/everything-yo...

[zellyn]

That is a great treatment. Thanks for the link.

[specialist]

As a sci-fi buff, I expected the new gender neutral pronouns to be something like zey, zem, zir, or whatever. Reusing "they" is unfortunate. And bad grammar.

[C1sc0cat]

They can be plural as well which is why its a bit jarring

[rusk]

So can "you", and speaking English as a first language all my life I still find it jarring. It's a constant irritation that colloqs such as ye, or yous are considered vulgar.

[derangedHorse]

It is definitely not common when talking about a specific person

[homonculus1]

Native speaker here--it is extremely weird usage. I struggled to understand who/how many the comment was referring to and had to read it several times.

[jagannathtech]

they -> people like woz

[liberte82]

Except for the Woz