[duguxu]

Most protesters never try to investigate the real thoughts of ordinary mainland people, who are just regarded as a stereotype of ignorance, impoliteness, nouveau riche, and pathetically waiting to be enlightened. Protesters know mainland people as little as, if not less than, ordinary mainland people know them. This is not a big deal in daily life, but could severely diminish the effect of the propaganda towards mainland visitors.

[rlue]

This comment is based on the peculiar notions that 1) it is possible to intimately understand the thoughts of over a billion people and 2) this understanding is necessary for propaganda to achieve its effect.

More importantly, it quietly dismisses the vast moral chasm between the CCP's propaganda and that of the protesters. One aims to restrict information (and spread misinformation) to advance the control of a state over its people, while the other aims to expose that restricted information to protect civil liberties.

[duguxu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, this is a political movement aiming at winning more support and allies from people of mainland China, and hence putting more pressure on the government. My comment just points out there are some negative factors for current organizers. They could have done better.

Information freedom is politically correct, but that doesn't mean tactics or investigation isn't important before conveying information to certain group of people to achieve a political goal practically.

Btw, CCP puts great stress on these two peculiar notions. Propaganda appears far more than restriction and misinformation.

[tempguy9999]

> They [the current organizers]could have done better

Interesting. Very specifically, how?

[duguxu]

Some opinions of mine. Any criticism is welcome:

A large portion of tourists do know there are protests in Hong Kong lasting for a few weeks and it's about the extradition bill, where criminals as defined in both Hong Kong and mainland at the same time could be transferred to Beijing with Hong Kong judges' approval. These are publicly reported in mainland. It's useless just retelling the story itself, or even worse in a sense of superiority (as pointed out in a twitter comment) saying "did you know? oops, sorry for you".

I think open-minded mainland people would prefer a thorough and better explanation of the opposition. Because from many ordinary people's perspective, Hong Kong still keeps legal control over the extradition under the bill and it would help the fight against corruption since Hong Kong is regularly involved in economic crimes committed by mainland citizens. "Extradition bill threatens your property in Hong Kong", appearing in many flyers, just looks like some kind of evidence supporting it for ordinary people.

Also, mainland people worries about stability and order of Hong Kong as much as protesters concern about freedom and democracy. Even if they disagree with each other on the order of importance, protesters could express a little about the shared value for long-term law and order in Hong Kong to dispel some concerns. Stressing only on freedom towards mainland people sounds as horrible as stressing only on order towards protesters, let alone storming the building of Legislative Council or attacking the police with bricks.

As is well known to mainland people, in the colonial era, the Hong Kong governor was appointed by British monarch and no democratic legitimacy existed until Britain started preparing the handover to China in 1980s. There were also multiple bloody riots crushed in the colonial history. It's really confusing for tourists to see protesters weaving flags of colonial or British flags without further clarification, for what these flags stand for besides asking for Britain's direct interference.

Lastly, truth is powerful enough. There is no need to exaggerate the numbers.

[hker]

Thanks for voicing out your view, very much appreciated.

> A large portion of tourists do know there are protests in Hong Kong lasting for a few weeks and it's about the extradition bill, where criminals as defined in both Hong Kong and mainland at the same time could be transferred to Beijing with Hong Kong judges' approval. These are publicly reported in mainland. It's useless just retelling the story itself, or even worse in a sense of superiority (as pointed out in a twitter comment) saying "did you know? oops, sorry for you".

I think the version of the opposition as presented by the Chinese media is not the full picture.

Case in point: even though the court of Hong Kong would be involved in the extradition, they could only examine prima facie evidence, a much lower bar than guilty beyond reasonable doubt. After all, Hong Kong does not have a near 100% conviction rate, showing the huge gap between going to court (prima facie) and conviction (guilty beyond reasonable doubt).

And the superiority in legal system in Hong Kong with respect to China is the independent jurisdiction and respect for constitution (for those who know, see 零八宪章 Charter 08 manifesto on constitution and 709大抓捕 709 crackdown), so that the law does not serve politics. Arguably, if and when China catch up on these two aspects, the opposition in Hong Kong would be much smaller.

> I think open-minded mainland people would prefer a thorough and better explanation of the opposition. Because from many ordinary people's perspective, Hong Kong still keeps legal control over the extradition under the bill and it would help the fight against corruption since Hong Kong is regularly involved in economic crimes committed by mainland citizens. "Extradition bill threatens your property in Hong Kong", appearing in many flyers, just looks like some kind of evidence supporting it for ordinary people.

For those who want a more thorough explanation, see the article by Leung Kai Chi (in Chinese [1], a rough translation in [2]). This article likely does not fit into a leaflet, but thanks for suggesting to use this version for open-minded mainland people instead.

[1]: https://medium.com/@leungkaichihk/反送中答問集-9841974d889c

[2]: https://pastebin.com/6JqR1EsR

> Also, mainland people worries about stability and order of Hong Kong as much as protesters concern about freedom and democracy. Even if they disagree with each other on the order of importance, protesters could express a little about the shared value for long-term law and order in Hong Kong to dispel some concerns. Stressing only on freedom towards mainland people sounds as horrible as stressing only on order towards protesters, let alone storming the building of Legislative Council or attacking the police with bricks.

Concerning stability, Hong Kongers are arguing that a proper legal system (independent jurisdiction and respect for constitution) and accountable democracy are the key to long term stability, and are one key issue underlying this protest.

Relatedly, note that storming local government and attacking police with bricks in protests also happen in China (and they sometimes turn cars over and set fire), but those do not get much media attention and are often censored (search for 群体抗暴事件). If mainland people do worry about such stability, those mass protests in China shows that what China is doing is not enough, and a better legal and political system is the key.

> As is well known to mainland people, in the colonial era, the Hong Kong governor was appointed by British monarch and no democratic legitimacy existed until Britain started preparing the handover to China in 1980s.

Britain wanted to give more democracy to Hong Kongers, but got opposed by Beijing [3]. Again, those “wellknown” as presented by Chinese media is not the full picture. These AirDrops are trying to counter the disinformation and censorship.

[3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...

> It's really confusing for tourists to see protesters weaving flags of colonial or British flags without further clarification, for what these flags stand for besides asking for Britain's direct interference.

Don’t know if it is related to the flag, but after the 1 July protest Britain just defended the 1984 Sino-British joint declaration concerning the autonomy of Hong Kong from Beijing’s influence [4]. It is hard to fit so much context into a small leaflet.

[4]: https://www.ft.com/content/429886f4-9cd1-11e9-9c06-a4640c9fe...

[duguxu]

Thanks for your patient and kindy reply. I believe many people in China, especially young students or businessmen have read or heard what you mentioned more or less. People from mainland definitely know the official news is not the full picture. But just don't simply assume they have no picture at all or their knowledge is totally incorrect without anything in line with the facts. That's my core point.

> They could only examine prima facie evidence, a much lower bar than guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

How low is that? Do you have some serious materials easy to read on this issue?

I think mainland people never deny Hong Kong's superiority on juridical system. Tourists would have a great interest knowing how it works and make Hong Kong a great success in business. However, it's superficial and hateful to propaganda just by focusing on familiar things and pretending nobody knows.

> a proper legal system and accountable democracy are the key to long term stability

Every sensible protester knows the importance of stability. But to get more support by propaganda, instead of taking it for granted, there's a lot to explain along the way between their behavior and the value both side shares. For certain group of people, it's not as obvious as the protesters see.

>Britain wanted to give more democracy to Hong Kongers, but got opposed by Beijing

Notice Britain could have given more democracy for Hong Kong without China's pressure before 1980 but she didn't, like Young plan. My point here is, according to history, the colony is not a better symbol for freedom and democracy than the SAR in mainland people's eyes, but more like a symbol for independence.

[hker]

Thanks for your view, but I beg to differ. Protestors are very interested in understanding how mainlanders think, and how to better convey the message of the protestors to mainlanders.

In one of the Hong Kong forum related to the protest, posts reflecting how mainlanders think got overwhelming upvotes (in Cantonese [1], [2], [3]).

As a matter of fact, those posts and their views hardly get mentioned in the press (local or foreign).

But if you have more to add, it would be very much appreciated.

[1]: https://lih.kg/1291046 "以一個大陸人的角度看向自由行宣傳"

[2]: https://lih.kg/1290746 "關於7/7遊行, 我有一個喺尖沙咀做服務業嘅朋友, 佢有啲嘢想講..."

[3]: https://lih.kg/1305083 "(開拓視野)看看大陸人真實既看法"

[scilro]

You're getting downvoted but I think it should be uncontroversial to say that mainland youth and HK youth have VASTLY different relationships to the CCP, and this particular propaganda doesn't seem to account for that. That's why I think it won't do much.