[toxicflavor]

I would say the only startup worth working on is your own.

Working at someone else's startup is a recipe for getting exploited - overworked and underpaid. And the worst thing about it is that it's all couched in an atmosphere of guilt trips and taking-it-for-the-team.

Perhaps there are exceptions. I just haven't seen any.

I'd rather work for The Man in my day job in a cold corporate environment where everything is explicit from the get-go, get well paid for it and crank out code for my own startup in my free time.

[mechanical_fish]

Working at someone else's startup is a recipe for getting exploited - overworked and underpaid.

Isn't working at anybody's startup a recipe for being overworked and underpaid?

Nice things about working for someone else's startup for a while: (a) you're not as overworked or underpaid as they are [1]; (b) you have less of your ego invested so you might sleep better; (c) you'll learn to see the world from the startup perspective; (d) you get a taste of the startup lifestyle, which will help you know if you're cut out for it; (e) you'll meet a bunch of other people who enjoy startups -- which is to say, people who are willing to be overworked and underpaid in exchange for some ineffable quality in their working life. Those people can be hard to find once you are out of school. You want to meet them, because if you have your own startup someday you'll need to know who and where they are.

(When you are in school, of course, you are always being overworked and underpaid. That's a big reason why startups are always on the hunt for new graduates: They're completely inured to the lifestyle.)

And, yes, if you've got the personality for it you can bootstrap a startup in a small amount of spare time while working in your corporate environment. But not everyone enjoys that, and there are many kinds of startup that can't really be done that way.

---

[1] If you're working as hard as the founders and getting the same compensation then you are a founder. If you're getting less equity than a founder they had better make up a lot of the difference with cash. If you're working for lousy equity and no cash... yes, you're being exploited. I guess you could argue that the problem with startups is that they have a pronounced tendency to try to lure you into accepting lousy equity and lousy cash, but that can happen at any job.

[rick888]

"Nice things about working for someone else's startup for a while: (a) you're not as overworked or underpaid as they are [1]; (b) you have less of your ego invested so you might sleep better; (c) you'll learn to see the world from the startup perspective; (d) you get a taste of the startup lifestyle, which will help you know if you're cut out for it; (e) you'll meet a bunch of other people who enjoy startups"

If you have your own startup, you can do all of these..except in the end, if the company gets bought out or it really takes off, you will get more than a sliver of the pie.

All startups in my area have horrible pay+small equity in the company. The problem I have is that someone else is making all of the final decisions. After 2 years, they could run the company into the ground and I will get nothing out of it except experience, which I can get in many other fulfilling ways. If I'm going to be forced to live a frugal life, it will be because of my own startup.

[lkrubner]

You write:

"After 2 years, they could run the company into the ground and I will get nothing out of it except experience"

I can relate to some of the frustration you express. I spent most of 6 years working with the entrepreneur behind Bluewall (http://www.bluewallmedia.com/). I worked there 2002-2008 (on and off). We occasionally built some projects that seemed to do well, initially, and which possibly would have grown if the business had had some focus and discipline and follow-up. (We built a decent video store for the yoga site http://www.ihanuman.com/store.php and we could have used the same software to build out a whole network of similar niche/community focused video sites.)

I saw a lot of projects abandoned, some of which seemed to have big potential. It was frustrating to watch as $2 million dollars were wasted on what seemed like a long series of bad decisions.

However, I can not fully agree with this part of what you write:

"I will get nothing out of it except experience, which I can get in many other fulfilling ways."

Strictly speaking, your statement is true, there are many other things you can do, all of which will bring you experiences. However, startup experiences are unique and not easily fungible for other experiences. The question then, simply, is whether you want startup experiences. If not, then you probably should not be working at startups at all, even if the pay was great. But if yes, then I think you'll walk away with experiences that will seem very valuable to you, and worth the opportunity cost.

[rick888]

"Strictly speaking, your statement is true, there are many other things you can do, all of which will bring you experiences. However, startup experiences are unique and not easily fungible for other experiences. The question then, simply, is whether you want startup experiences. If not, then you probably should not be working at startups at all, even if the pay was great. But if yes, then I think you'll walk away with experiences that will seem very valuable to you, and worth the opportunity cost."

The other way to get startup experience is to start one yourself. You get the experience running a startup and the risk/reward ratio is much better.

[lkrubner]

Assuming you have the money to do it, then sure, but you are risking your own money. We all start out making mistakes, and if you can learn important things while someone else pays all the bills, then you are better off in the end.

[kingofspain]

I'd have to agree. Having worked for almost free for no less than 4 "startups" with absolutely nothing to show for it, I'm a little more hesitant than most to jump in again. There's only so many times someone can say "This time it's different" before you stop listening.

Plus I find it hard to feign the appropriate level of passion for leveraging social graphs in a disruptive manner or making business logic sexy.

I'm always been a cynical type but the majority of places I've had experience with have given me reason to bolster that outlook :)

[kareemm]

Why are you blaming the startup founders? You chose to work for "almost free". And if you have "absolutely nothing to show for it" after working at four startups - where learning is accelerated - it's probably not the startup founders' fault.

Don't mean to be harsh but giving responsibility for your decisions to others is a recipe for unhappiness (and cynicism).

[randall]

I think working with one "no hope" startup is good. I've worked with exactly one, and that's what I expect to leave it at.

I've also worked with four "has hope" startups (aka I take some cash) and the lessons there are huge.

The startups you describe are "no hope" startups. Try to find one that has users, growth and money. You'll dig it and learn a lot.

[krschultz]

You are comparing "working for free at a startup" to working for a big company.

I worked at a startup that was funded, and paid well. I'd say the difference in pay between that and somewhere else was minimal, maybe 10-15% difference, it is hard to say. But I certainly was making real money.

Yes, I worked a heck of a lot hours there. But if I worked 50-60 hours a week there and I currently work 45-50 now, it really wasn't that big of a difference. Especially when the startup was flexible about things like working from home, telecommuting, they gave more vacation time, etc. And I liked every one of those hours a whole lot more at the startup than I do now at the corporate job.

I left for other reasons that really were not related to the job, the hours, or the pay. I needed experience for my career in a different direction to go where I ultimately want to go. I went to that startup to learn about startups, now I'm in the job I am in today to learn about this industry. Ultimately I'd like to start my startup in this industry, having experience in both areas for a few years first. But if it was just about the job and not where I am planning to go, I'd go back to the startup in a heartbeat.

[daleharvey]

I used to have the same opinion, but after leaving the second company I started I was looking around for things to do.

I found a great startup that was a perfect fit technically and culturally, I dont care about money as long as I have enough to live comfortably, and working anything but hard isnt a choice for me.

I have been there quite a few months now and couldnt be happier, I am working on technology I love with awesome people, I am making relationships that will benefit me in the future, strengthening my ability to execute a new companies strategy all with a percentage of the stress and strain that my own startup produced.

[lkrubner]

You write:

"I would say the only startup worth working on is your own."

I think you are, without realizing it, criticizing the small amount of equity normally given out to people who join startups. Yes, if you are getting less than 1% of a startup, and making a big sacrifice for that startup, then the sacrifice may not make any sense.

Ellen Beldner does the same thing, in the indirectly linked article. She writes:

"Senior engineers / VPs / early directors may get somewhere between 50 and 150 basis points (0.5 - 1.5%)."

Those are very small amounts of equity. Such small amounts do not make sense if the idea of the startup is utterly unproven. It is valid to criticize those amounts, but the conclusion should be that early employees should get larger stakes.

For the first 3 or 4 people working with a startup, I agree with you that they should be working on "their" startup. And that is the point of equity - to make it theirs. But clearly, early on, with the idea unproven, the equity stakes need to more like 10% or 20% rather than less than 1%. Give someone 10% - 20% of the company and then they are doing what you suggest: the only startup worth working on is your own. They are substantial owners at that point (10% to 20%).

And yes, the equity stakes will get diluted later on, if the company is successful, but that is fine, since that is such a great problem to have to worry about - it means you've been successful.

Right now, I'm trying to get friends to work with me on my startup. The shares we are considering are all in the 5% to 10% range, rather than the less than 1% range. (It helps too that my startup has already had a few customers, so the idea is not completely unproven.)

[PonyGumbo]

I have the worst of both worlds right now. I'm working for a ~30 person company owned by 5,000+ person company. It feels like a startup environment (in the sense that we're overworked and underpaid, and there are unreasonable demands on our time), but we still have to deal with the bureaucratic headaches of being part of a large company. I'm trying to make enough time to get my own project off the ground, so I can quit - but I'm only left with the odd evening or weekend to work on it.

[lpolovets]

I'd like to politely disagree. I've worked for two startups that were not mine, and both were awesome. What you're saying might be sometimes true or often true, but to say you haven't seen any exceptions is a pretty bold statement.

Consider all of the YC companies, or every startup you read about on HN or TechCrunch where you think, "wow, they are doing cool stuff". Many of those companies have at least a few (and probably more than a few) non-founder employees. If you polled all of those people, how many would say they feel like they are exploited, underpaid, overworked, guilt tripped, etc? It might be a non-trivial amount, but I'm pretty sure it's far less than 100%

[gjenkin]

If your startup does eventually take off, you will have to hire people. But I'm afraid that no one (no one of significant worth anyway) will want to work for you if your attitude is that "working at someone else's startup is a recipe for getting exploited". How will you, as a founder, do things differently?

[smikhanov]

You won't. Without exceptions, all founders I know that seem to have a chance to succeed are huge manipulators. I even think that this is a prerequisite to startup success. Those founders just have this special combination of personality and charisma that makes it almost impossible to say "no" to them, even if a minute ago you blamed yourself for allowing to exploit you.

[rick888]

"How will you, as a founder, do things differently?"

Pay developers what they are worth. If you can't afford it, then you are doing something wrong.

[mmt]

Exactly. TFA's theme is having employees invest cash by taking below market salaries.

Smart, experienced[1], disciplined employees will expect this to be a choice. Some may take the equity. Others will insist on the cash.

I agree that if one can't afford the latter, one is doing something wrong.

[1] In the ways of startups and the tech industry in general

[z0r]

Run the startup as a syndicate with democratically determined division of duties and compensation, of course!

[quickpost]

I thought this comment sounded familiar...

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1536877

Good thing you only plagiarized yourself! :)