[stcredzero]

in which case you explicitly opt into doing nothing, and for which there are linters that catch this sort of behavior automatically.

There are linters for golang. No reason why those sorts of tools and community norms shouldn't squash those sorts of behaviors. (As has happened for race conditions in golang!)

[apta]

I used such linters, and they fail at certain things. The `fmt.Println("")` example still holds. Another example:

  a, err := foo()
  b, err := bar()
  c, err := baz()

err doesn't get handled in the first two cases, and the linter doesn't complain.

And race conditions in golang are very much possible, and cause issues in prod.

[stcredzero]

I used such linters, and they fail at certain things.

Of course. They're just a tool.

For the amount of concurrency done, golang is doing pretty good. I know of no other programming community which has such community standards on using race condition checking to the same extent as linting.

[apta]

> Of course. They're just a tool.

Which is why it is strictly superior to use a language feature which does not have this issue to begin with (e.g. exceptions or actual compiler enforced error handling like Rust).

> I know of no other programming community which has such community standards on using race condition checking

I assume you're referring to the golang race detector. It's better than nothing, but then again, it's a tool and is not guaranteed to find all issues that may arise. Compare (again) with Rust, or with languages with proper immutable data structures like Scala and Java (e.g. https://immutables.github.io), not to mention https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/8208520 or https://clang.llvm.org/docs/ThreadSanitizer.html

[stcredzero]

actual compiler enforced error handling like Rust

Or Java?

Compare (again) with Rust, or with languages with proper immutable data structures like Scala and Java

To paraphrase you from earlier: As far as I know, race conditions happen and leak out into production with Scala and Java.

The lesson of golang, and really the lesson of programming in the large for the past 30 years, is that it's not enough to have mathematical or methodological power in guaranteeing correctness in a program. If that were the case, formal methods would have won decades ago, and we'd all be using such environments. It's not about having the most rigorous widget. It's getting programmers to do the right thing, month after month, year after year, in large numbers, across different management teams. Arguing the strength of constructs within programming languages is just an idle meta-anatomic measurement exercise.

That said, I like lots of things about Java, Scala, and Rust. I just happen to really like golang for a different set of reasons. Golang is concurrency+programming-in-the-large-human-factors "Blub," in a way that refutes PG's essay about Blub.

[apta]

> Or Java?

Yes - that was implied in the same sentence where I wrote "(e.g. exceptions or actual compiler enforced error handling like Rust)." :-)

> As far as I know, race conditions happen and leak out into production with Scala and Java.

They do. But there are more techniques in those languages (such as immutable collections, as their type systems are actually able to model and implement them) to mitigate the issue.

> and really the lesson of programming in the large for the past 30 years, is that it's not enough to have mathematical or methodological power in guaranteeing correctness in a program.

I agree there. I actually don't abide by the ideas that using a language like Haskell or Idris or what have you will automagically grant you superior or error-free software. I actually like what talks like these have to say:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWdy_AngDp0

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=449j7oKQVkc

However, that does not mean we disregard established practices, only to try to reinvent them in a bad way as we see golang trying to do (no generics - even though many other languages implemented them "correctly", bad error handling, no sum types, null pointers, and so on). They purposely disregarded these works without good arguments at all, and now they're struggling to find workarounds, or continue to dismiss them as non-issues, even though they clearly are.

The way I see it, the moment Java gets fibers and value types implemented, and GraalVM's native compilation is mature enough for use, golang's appeal as a devops langauge where it ended up (however low it is currently - as it's mainly over hyped) becomes even less. C#/.NET is the other alternative making very good progress, and they already have async, value types, and NGEN (though I don't know how mature the latter is for production).

> programming-in-the-large-human-factors

This seems to continually get mentioned without anything to back it up. Sorry, but from what I've seen, Java and C# are strictly superior for "programming in the large". Things like "fast compile times" aren't even a factor in front of Java and C# with their incremental compilation. And the fact that the language is "simple" just means that you will end up with more verbose and complex code, with more places for things to go wrong, and yes I've seen it in larger golang code bases.